topic Re: Incorrectly Billed for calls to a Talk Talk Phone Number in Billing

Incorrectly Billed for calls to a Talk Talk Phone Number

inkie — Sun, 31 Dec 2023 11:57:01 GMT

On my December bill with no prior notice, I started to be charged for ALL calls to a landline number that has always been free. The number in question is for a customer xfered to Fleur Telecom (by Talk Talk) and has always been designated a Talk Talk phone number.

It proved impossible to speak to anyone in customer services to resolve this issue. Eventually, via chat the £40 call charges were "waved". It was also confirmed in the chat that the number in question was a "Talk Talk number" and that calls to "other Talk Talk numbers" remain free (for 90 mins). I have now been charged £7.20 for a 29 min call to the same number again on 30th December. At NO time have I been told that calls to customers with Fleur Telecom are now chargeable. How do I get somebody at Talk Talk to resolve this issue as it is impossible to speak to anybody in customer services? Thanks!

Re: Incorrectly Billed for calls to a Talk Talk Phone Number

Gondola — Sun, 31 Dec 2023 12:40:13 GMT

Fleur Telecom customers are not TalkTalk Consumer customers. The telephone number may have originally been issued to TalkTalk. When customers were transferred to Fleur Telecom so the responsibility for the telephone service and its billing was transferred to Fleur Telecom and the number would now be in the name of Fleur Telecom.

TalkTalk also separated its divisions. TalkTalk Business Direct, TalkTalk Wholesale and TalkTalk Consumer are operating independently. TalkTalk Business Direct was sold in October 2023 and so my understanding is that any business numbers are also not included as free TalkTalk to TalkTalk calls. I think this may need to be better documented to avoid misunderstanding.

The ownership of Fleur Telecom also may need clarification. Fleur Telecom was acquired by the Telecom Acquisitions Group (TAG) that is the owner of a number of small consumer businesses offering telecom services. These are customers of TalkTalk Wholesale and TalkTalk itself has a controlling stake in the Telecoms Acquisitions Group. This controlling stake does not qualify the consumer 'phone numbers of any of the consumer businesses that are part of TAG as TalkTalk numbers - even those numbers originally issued to TalkTalk and ported out of TalkTalk to any of these other telecoms businesses.

Re: Incorrectly Billed for calls to a Talk Talk Phone Number

inkie — Sun, 31 Dec 2023 13:29:46 GMT

Thank you for the reply Gondola. Whilst I think you are correct on the ownership status of Fleur Telecom, when rural TalkTalk customers were (forcibly) transferred to Fleur it was agreed that calls to the numbers moved over would remain free to TalkTalk customers. All of my bills (including most of Decembers) list the Fleur Telecom number as a “free TalkTalk number”. This status suddenly changed with no notice half way through Decembers billing period. I was told on chat this was a “mistake”.
It may well be that TalkTalk and Fleur Telecom have ended the agreement, however TalkTalk can not start charging calls to Fleur Telecom without notification to TalkTalk customers. The number is now being listed as a “local & national UK number” by the looks of it.

This needs somebody at TalkTalk to confirm that calls to Fleur Telecom numbers will now be chargeable and give notice on the effective date.

Re: Incorrectly Billed for calls to a Talk Talk Phone Number

Gondola — Sun, 31 Dec 2023 13:45:56 GMT

I've already asked the Help content team for their guidance on your behalf.

Do you happen to have a link to this agreement on the continuation of free calls from TalkTalk landline customers to customers moved to Fleur Telecom? I don't see anything in the relevant FAQ for onetel customers moving to TalkTalk or onetel customers moving to Fleur Telecom.

Any documentation would be helpful to your case.

Re: Incorrectly Billed for calls to a Talk Talk Phone Number

inkie — Sun, 31 Dec 2023 13:57:31 GMT

Hi, I would have to hunt for old paperwork given to the Fleur customer and me when the number was moved from TalkTalk to Fleur Telecom as it was a few years ago. However, the evidence is clear from my bills. The number is listed as type “TalkTalk calls” up to and including 22nd Nov 2023. From 27th Nov 2023 it was changed by TalkTalk to call type “local & national uk calls”.

Re: Incorrectly Billed for calls to a Talk Talk Phone Number

Gondola — Sun, 31 Dec 2023 14:12:39 GMT

The TalkTalk Billing team did comment that the billing was a mistake so they could have meant that classing the calls to Fleur Telecom as free was the mistake. The billing team would have been notified if there was an agreed change so the change in your billing is unexpected all ways round.

We haven't seen any update on call costs so that's why I've asked for clarification on your behalf. I agree that any change to your material disadvantage does require a minimum 30 days' notification under TalkTalk T&C's if such a change is the result of a business decision made by TalkTalk.

Re: Incorrectly Billed for calls to a Talk Talk Phone Number

inkie — Sun, 31 Dec 2023 14:38:09 GMT

If I remember correctly, Fleur telecom was set up by Daisy Group back in 2015 under an agreement with TalkTalk to offload 4% of their (primarily) rural customers who couldn’t receive TalkTalks minimum broadband speed.
When customers were transferred, I know for certain that both TalkTalk & Fleur confirmed calls between TalkTalk numbers and the xfered numbers would remain free. What is not known is if or when that situation changed.

As long as TalkTalk confirm they will remove the new unexpected £7.20 charge and provide me with 30 days notice in writing that I will now be charged for any new calls I make to the Fleur telecom number then that will make sense under standard T&C’s.

Re: Incorrectly Billed for calls to a Talk Talk Phone Number

Gondola — Sun, 31 Dec 2023 15:07:24 GMT

You were advised correctly that calls to other TalkTalk landline customers up to 90 minutes are free. So you have been advised correctly.

What's needed is confirmation that the Fleur Telecom customer is defined as having a TalkTalk landline for the purposes of entitlement to you to call for free for up to 90 minutes.

If TalkTalk were just correcting a billing error then they're also entitled to go back no more than 3 months to recover undercharging (Ofcom rules). So the key issue is to see confirmation (from you, that customer or TalkTalk) that the Fleur Telecom customer was defined in the last 3 months as having a TalkTalk landline for the purposes of free calls for you to them. Further confirmation from TalkTalk on whether they've made a business decision on defining what constitutes a TalkTalk landline. Particularly relevant now that the TalkTalk Group operates three independent units, Business Direct, Wholesale and Consumer that also offers Digital Voice (VOIP) services.

My understanding is TalkTalk Consumer customer home landline including digital voice but that does need to be clarified.

Re: Incorrectly Billed for calls to a Talk Talk Phone Number

inkie — Sun, 31 Dec 2023 16:11:00 GMT

I think we are broadly in agreement on this topic. In my case, they have failed to notify me of either a change or a past error with this numbers call type assignment which has only recently been discovered.

In my chat with an agent on Dec 16th, it was confirmed that calls to other TalkTalk numbers remained free and that the number should have been billed as call type TalkTalk and not Uk national/local. If the agent when asked had clearly stated all new calls to the number would henceforth be chargeable then I would have acted on that information accordingly.

i don’t doubt there are other TalkTalk customers who have or will get unexpected charges to Fleur numbers on their bills if they don’t have a landline call package.

Re: Incorrectly Billed for calls to a Talk Talk Phone Number

Gondola — Sun, 31 Dec 2023 16:20:18 GMT

Don't worry I've raised the issue for you and the only other Consumer customer that was charged for calling a TalkTalk Business number when that was previously seen to be included as a free TalkTalk landline customer call.

If you or the Fleur customer can find the relevant documentation that would help.

Re: Incorrectly Billed for calls to a Talk Talk Phone Number

Gondola — Tue, 02 Jan 2024 17:31:58 GMT

Hi @inkie

How are you getting on? Happy New Year. Just to say I'm still on the case regarding the free TalkTalk landline to TalkTalk landline calls.

Any joy in finding documentation on the status of free 180 minute calls from TalkTalk landlines to migrated customer Fleur Telecom landlines? I'm in discussion with the Help Content team that are right now liaising with the Billing team. So, if there is information available that you can post, please do. Thanks again.

Re: Incorrectly Billed for calls to a Talk Talk Phone Number

inkie — Tue, 02 Jan 2024 18:01:17 GMT

Hi Gondola, thanks for the update. The info was likely provided to the (now) Fleur telecom customer at the time of transfer, but I do remember I also verbally confirmed it with TalkTalk to be doubly sure at the time, but we are talking several years ago. The customer is not tech savvy and lives some distance away from me so I won’t be able to check immediately. I seem to also remember this subject cropped up in archived community posts but I have not had time to see if I can get access to those.

The change for me happened within a specific 5 day window so the billing team will be able to tell from system audit logs who made the change and why. I just need the £7.20 refunded and definitive confirmation if this number will remain type “national or local Uk” or if it will be reverted back to type “TalkTalk free” as it was prior to 27th Nov 2023.

Thanks for your ongoing help, it is appreciated.

Re: Incorrectly Billed for calls to a Talk Talk Phone Number

Gondola — Tue, 02 Jan 2024 18:08:44 GMT

Two of the TalkTalk team that have picked up my request have both indicated that their understanding was the free 180 minute calls were for TalkTalk residential landline to TalkTalk residential landline only. We're waiting on the Billing team for confirmations. There seems to be no knowledge of an agreement for free calls to migrated Fleur Telecom customers hence needing to try and find some copy to cover this point.

I did a search for Fleur Telecom topics but didn't find any of relevance. Do you have a date for your Fleur Telecom customer being migrated out?

Re: Incorrectly Billed for calls to a Talk Talk Phone Number

inkie — Tue, 02 Jan 2024 19:08:50 GMT

I suspect the migration was back in 2015 or 2016 but will let you know once I can confirm. Not sure where the 180 mins is coming from - it used to be 60 mins but is now 90 mins?
Regardless of what TalkTalk do or do not think was agreed for migrated numbers to Fleur, the facts are clear- the number was type TalkTalk free before it was transferred to Fleur and remained type TalkTalk free after the transfer right up until the call type was changed to Uk local or national without any notice whatsoever between 23rd and 27th November 2023.
Other customers who dial Fleur numbers (if this was a mass database update) won’t notice if they have paid to add UK calls to their phone package. Customers will only notice the change if they have no inclusive call package.
TBH all I am looking for is a refund of the £7.20 charged after the agent told me on 16th Dec the number should still be free and a definitive confirmation from TalkTalk that Fleur numbers are now call type Uk local & national. Thanks!

Re: Incorrectly Billed for calls to a Talk Talk Phone Number

Gliwmaeden2 — Tue, 02 Jan 2024 20:06:17 GMT

Just an incidental clarification, @inkie.

The Boost for unlimited calls gives calls to 01, 02, 03 and ordinary mobiles for up to an hour at a time.

The Talktalk customer to Talktalk customer deal has always been 180 minutes.

No idea why the agent mentioned 90 minutes - and we have checked this behind the scenes. That only works, however, if you are sure that the person you are ringing is a Talktalk customer - part of the point of your thread.

Re: Incorrectly Billed for calls to a Talk Talk Phone Number

inkie — Tue, 02 Jan 2024 20:28:50 GMT

@Gliwmaeden2 Thanks for clarification on the call length, I have just found the 3 hour limit mentioned somewhere in the help pages.
@Gondola The ownership relationship between Fleur & TalkTalk has gone through several complicated changes since 2015. You might be interested in this article and its associated links. TT’s acquisition's & mergers have always been somewhat messy & fluid! https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2023/07/debt-pressures-pushing-budget-uk-isp-talktalk-toward-breakup.html

Re: Incorrectly Billed for calls to a Talk Talk Phone Number

Gondola — Tue, 02 Jan 2024 21:05:33 GMT

December 2015 is relevant to the migration notice from Fleur Telecom that I posted earlier. I've gone through all the FAQ from that notice and there's nothing there advising of any free calls from remaining TalkTalk customers to migrated Fleur Telecom customers.

TalkTalk and I are confident that the 180 minute free calls have been in place for TalkTalk customer to TalkTalk customer landlines all the time from pre-TalkTalk days when Carphone Warehouse was the owning entity. In fact, because I first became a TalkTalk customer in 2016 I thought the 3 hour call time was introduced by Tristia Harrison, the then TalkTalk CEO, at the start of the pandemic in 2020. However, this was just a temporary increase in the Anytime UK calls boost that's 60 minutes of free call time per UK call.

So, if your understanding is that 60 minutes of free call time per call between your landline number and a Fleur Telecom landline number was what was agreed in 2015 then that's an entirely different situation. I'm also not aware of any calling time inclusive that's 90 minutes.

This then raises the question of whether we're talking here about Indirect Dialled Access (IDA) which was a feature for onetel customers and that is mentioned in the FAQ. Onetel's “Dial Around” or “Indirect Dialled Access” was withdrawn in 2015 / 2016. Full details of what was notified to customers then about the withdrawal of IDA aren't given. Only that Fleur Telecom didn't support IDA and customers would receive bills for any calls they make.

Or are we talking about you having a legacy inclusive calls package?

The only sure thing we have is that the calls were labelled TalkTalk free until November. But is that because the TalkTalk Billing system was associating that with TalkTalk issued landline numbers. That would certainly have had to change recently because in the separation of TalkTalk divisions TalkTalk Consumer would be billed by TalkTalk Business Direct for terminating landline calls. Therefore the TalkTalk Billing system would have to have a different way to distinguish a TalkTalk Consumer or residential landline customer from a TalkTalk Business Direct / TalkTalk Wholesale customer of which Fleur Telecom is one.

I think maybe that we're getting to the issue here that it's the TalkTalk Billing system that's had to be updated and that in turn has flushed out this error in billing for calls to Fleur Telecom customers. Perhaps you should have been billed for calls outside of any inclusive package calls made to the Fleur Telecom customer between 2015 and 2023?

The Billing team are looking into the case and will no doubt give us more details on any recent changes. In the meantime if you do have documentation from 2015 outlining what would happen regarding TalkTalk customer to Fleur Telecom customer calls that would be useful.

Re: Incorrectly Billed for calls to a Talk Talk Phone Number

Gondola — Tue, 02 Jan 2024 23:21:12 GMT

Ah, my bad. I see I made the mistake of repeating your "90 minutes" even though I thought you'd been advised correctly on the 3 hour (180 minutes) TalkTalk to TalkTalk landline call time. So, yes, I'm not aware that there's ever been a 90 minute call duration.

Re: Incorrectly Billed for calls to a Talk Talk Phone Number

inkie — Wed, 03 Jan 2024 11:49:19 GMT

@Gondola Yes, we can completely ignore the call duration - its a red herring and not relevant to the issue. @Gliwmaeden2 has explained the different call duration lengths correctly.

Whilst I appreciate the only Fleur migration FAQ's that still seem to be available are for one-tel customers and mention of IDA, again this is not relevant.

If we are after a history lesson on TalkTalk customer acquisitions, upgrades, changing packages & migrations then I can provide quite a long one because I was originally a Tiscali customer. TalkTalk bought Tiscali but it remained a separate entity which caused all sorts of headaches when dealing with TalkTalk on issues!. Tiscali originally provided a "friends & family" landline call package for up to 10 numbers, the same as BT back then if I have remembered correctly. When TalkTalk eventually decided to move Tiscali customers onto their own network Tiscali call packages were switched to the nearest TalkTalk equivalent, EG: "evening & weekend" calls . Free calls between TalkTalk landlines was introduced when Tiscali customers were moved to the TalkTalk billing system in December 2010. This move caused a number of issues for old Tiscali customers for several years throughout TalkTalk's major upgrade programme which was blamed on poor record keeping by Tiscali.

In 2015 or 2016 (exact year unknown) TalkTalk offloaded some old Tiscali ( TalkTalk) customers to Fleur Telecom (as part of an agreement between Daisy Group and TalkTalk) as previously discussed.

Fleur telecom had no email platform so it was agreed as part of the setup of Fleur that migrated customers would keep their Tiscali/TalkTalk email accounts and I believe active accounts were subsequently migrated to TalkTalk's new email platform at some point. Having spoken to the customer it seems that AFTER they were migrated to Fleur, calls between 3 different TalkTalk account holders and the migrated number remained free but old Fleur bills have not been kept to prove this.

Whilst this is all interesting history on TalkTalk's messy acquisitions, mergers, sales and administration (well to some people!) it really is not relevant to the straightforward issue raised in this thread and to my mind this is simple for the billing team to resolve one way or the other. The wider potential issue of how many other numbers in the billing system have recently had the call type changed is another matter altogether!.

Re: Incorrectly Billed for calls to a Talk Talk Phone Number

inkie — Thu, 04 Jan 2024 20:43:21 GMT

Hi, As requested: The Talktalk customer was migrated to Fleur in 2015. The letter received from Fleur in November 2015 specifically states “customers will continue to have free calls to TalkTalk customers and customers like you who have moved to Fleur for up to 180 mins”

This statement by Fleur in the migration letter implies that TalkTalk had agreed that calls from TalkTalk to migrated Fleur customers would also remain free supported by the fact that no communication has ever been sent by TalkTalk warning of the introduction of new charges for calls to TalkTalk customers who were migrated to Fleur.
No further communication has ever been sent by Fleur to the migrated customers advising them free calls to TalkTalk customers has or would be removed either.
Fleur migrated customers also technically retained an active TalkTalk account via their TalkTalk email address so it makes sense that calls between TalkTalk and migrated customers remained free.