topic Re: RE: Constant packet loss and ping variance when accessing any Internet service via Ethernet o... in Full Fibre

RE: Constant packet loss and ping variance when accessing any Internet service via Ethernet or WiFi

Double000 — Sun, 18 Jun 2023 15:45:52 GMT

Good afternoon, I am a Full Fibre customer and for approximately 3 weeks now I have been having frequent packet loss and ping variance when I access the Internet through any of my computers, the problem exists regardless of whether the devices are connected by Ethernet or WiFi. Tests that I performed revealed to me that the issue was not on my network.

I contacted TalkTalk technical chat support and explained the issue and my findings. I expressed to the agent that the problem is not likely to be the router based on the aforementioned but nevertheless I accepted his solution of a new router and so proceeded to order me a new TalkTalk router.

The router arrived on 17/06/2023 and I installed it but the packet loss and ping variance problem was still present. I explained this to the TalkTalk technical chat support agent on that same day and showed them the data and graphs to illustrate the issue to them but the agent did not recognise the issue and was not able to help me further other than telling me to wait for one day for my line quality to settle.

To me that made no sense considering the problem looked exactly the same as before the new router was installed so naturally one would think that the issue is not caused by the router and would move on to diagnosing the next component such as the ONT box or suggest a BT Openreach engineer visit to analyse the line quality from the exchange or my router point but this is not the case, so I wait for one day.

One day passes and the problem remains, no different exactly the same.

I am open to any suggestions from anybody but as expressed I don’t think this is likely to be an issue that can be solved by the average domestic user because all of the components have been changed right down to the mains adapters except for the ONT/fiber box itself.

Again, the ping variance and packet loss does not occur when pinging networking nodes on my network, only when trying to send data to a networking node on the Internet and this is constant there is no downtime.

I was told that posting my issue to the forum may allow for TalkTalk support staff to raise the problem further so I am asking for support staff to please take the information on board and investigate this.

I tried to convey all this to the TalkTalk technical support chat agents but either they don’t understand the information I provided and so cannot understand the problem or they don’t have the tools to analyse packet loss and ping variance and so cannot take analysis further.

Given the following I am starting to believe the former over the latter as one agent (the one that told me to wait and see) even told me that this high frequency of packet loss and ping variance was not a fault and that I should talk to the service owners of my game or the website owners to resolve the packet loss issue despite the fact that I had expressed to the agent that the packet loss is not random and is occurring to every website or server I access. It doesn’t matter if I ping youtube.com, bbc.co.uk or play a game of Battlefield 4 the issue is there. The reason why it is more notable in some services over others is because the packet loss though frequent is not quantifiable in megabytes for most basic services and services like Youtube are not as time critical as online games.

I have attached PDF print outs of: 2 packet loss tests performed on https://devicechecker.org/packet-lost-test/ , 2 tests performed on https://speed.cloudflare.com/ and 2 command ping lists based on my computer pinging to google.co.uk and bbc.co.uk to help express the issue.

I kept the ping test from https://devicechecker.org/packet-lost-test/ intentionally small so the result graph could be better seen. Using a test with more packets or changing the size of the packets produces the same result.

Looking at some of the data one could easily assume random packet loss at first glance but given what we can see from the report on https://devicechecker.org/packet-lost-test/, the command ping test and https://speed.cloudflare.com/ the packet loss test is being executed quickly and out of sync with the interval where packets can be sent hence the variance in packet loss. So in some cases I am executing the packet loss test at the tail end of when packets can be sent successfully in other cases at mid point and in other cases at the beginning or just before packets can be sent. At least this is my thinking based on the information available.

My intuition tells me that either there is a fault with a networking device external of my address or my packets of data are being routed through an already highly congested area and that the networking devices that handle this area are overloaded and as such are delaying packets beyond their TTL or dropping packets entirely.

Please, if an engineer could look into this I would be very grateful.

Thank you

Re: RE: Constant packet loss and ping variance when accessing any Internet service via Ethernet or W

KeithFrench — Sun, 18 Jun 2023 21:06:33 GMT

I have asked one of TalkTalk's support to pick your thread up and investigate it for you.

They aim to respond within 48 hours (Monday - Friday) excluding Bank Holidays, but if more urgent you can always try the Service Centre on 0345 172 0088. The posts are responded to in time/date order, oldest first. Please try to avoid posting on here until TalkTalk has responded to you, otherwise, this will just put you further down the queue.

To save yourself time, please make sure that your community profile includes your first & last names, broadband phone number & if possible an alternative contact number. This can be done by clicking on your Avatar picture then click on "My Settings" followed by:-

Personal Profile > Personal Information

Otherwise, TalkTalk will not be able to tie up your forum username to your broadband account. Only you & TalkTalk have visibility of your details.

Re: RE: Constant packet loss and ping variance when accessing any Internet service via Ethernet o...

Anonymous — Mon, 19 Jun 2023 06:53:27 GMT

Morning,

I'm sorry to hear this. Can I just confirm a few things please. Do you experience the packet loss/high pings if you connect directly at the ONT with the router removed? When you experience the high/varying pings do you also experience slow speeds at the same time, if you run a speed test? Does it seem to happen specifically at a certain times of the day or all the time? Have you also tried powering down both the ONT and the router for a full 30 minutes and then retested this again?

Thanks

Re: RE: Constant packet loss and ping variance when accessing any Internet service via Ethernet o...

Double000 — Mon, 19 Jun 2023 19:34:07 GMT

Thank you KeithFrench for forwarding my post and thank you Michhelle-TalkTalk for your suggestions.

I had not thought to try and connect the ONT directly to a computer but upon doing so I can see that the tests complete without packet loss.

Also, I received another router from TalkTalk today (this is probably the one that I reported to TalkTalk as not being received). To keep things simple lets call the router that I received today on the 19/06/2023 router 3, the router that I received on the 17/06/2023 router 2 and the router that was installed before this date router 1.

I had tested router 2 today before and after trying your ONT suggestion to see if there was any discernable difference. I couldn’t see any so I tried router 3 and unfortunately the result is very much like router 2. In considering this I have left router 3 and it’s cables installed and will arrange to send router 1 and router 2 back to TalkTalk using the given postal labels.

Failing to get any better result I tried your other suggestion of powering off both router 3 and the ONT for 1 hour but this has not improved the situation as far as I can tell.

I then decided to disconnect the mains to everything in the room where router 3 and the ONT are installed but again there is no clear change.

I also have tried connecting the router power adapter to a different mains socket or through a different surge protector.

My thoughts to disconnecting and swapping the location of where I power the devices was based on the idea that maybe there was some kind of electrical interference being induced in the router. Usually the power adapters that exist will have rectification circuitry to filter out small voltage spikes and give you steady direct current for things like routers so this shouldn’t really be a problem but I am trying to eliminate all possibilities.

Given the results I think I can say that my intuition expressed in my original post was incorrect. The problem seems to be localised within the property but I do not know what it could be.

One thought that I have is that the ONT though functional when connected to a computer directly has degraded over time in some way shape or form such that it is no longer able to function at the required tolerances that the router expects; if that’s the case then a new ONT will solve the issue. As expressed I have been wrong before so please feel free to tell me that I am incorrect.

Also please note:

Nothing new has been installed in the house at all
Nothing has been changed
As far as I can see there are no road works/building works that have been or is being undertaken by anyone around my neighbourhood.
Moving the router or jiggling/bending Ethernet cables or the Ethernet plugs at the back of the router doesn’t seem to be making a difference and neither does placing the router upside down, on its side or in any other posture.
Changing computers or using WiFi does not make a difference
Consider also that when the issue was first detected roughly 3 weeks ago router 1 nor its cables or the ONT box had been touched or changed.

Regarding your other questions:

“When you experience the high/varying pings do you also experience slow speeds at the same time, if you run a speed test?”

I do not think so, the test from devicechecker does not show bandwidth but the test from cloudflare does and I don’t recall seeing any strangely low bandwidth numbers. I have also tried doing a bandwidth test and again I see no real bandwidth loss.

Besides what is seen in the graphs from devicechecker the ping irregularities are reported in PC online games that test network quality while you play. Games like Battlefield 4 will show icons to describe network problems and the icon of packet loss and ping latency variation are constantly showing often as red to indicate that the issue is severe. This happens on every server and on other online games.

“Does it seem to happen specifically at a certain times of the day or all the time?”

There doesn’t appear to be any downtime nor is there any time of day where the quality can be judged worst, it seems constant.

For reference:

Router 3 is modelled as a FAST 5464-2.T4
Router 2 is modelled as a FAST 5364-3.T8
Router 1 is modelled as a FAST 5464-2.T4

Thank you once again for your efforts.

Re: RE: Constant packet loss and ping variance when accessing any Internet service via Ethernet o...

Anonymous — Tue, 20 Jun 2023 05:43:56 GMT

Morning,

Thanks for confirming that the connection is ok at the ONT. Just to confirm, do you still experience the packet loss if you connect wired at the router?

Thanks

Re: RE: Constant packet loss and ping variance when accessing any Internet service via Ethernet o...

Double000 — Tue, 20 Jun 2023 15:22:18 GMT

Yes, all test reports submitted are from Ethernet based connections. Different Ethernet ports have also been tried on the router and different computers have been used, the problem is the same.

Re: RE: Constant packet loss and ping variance when accessing any Internet service via Ethernet o...

Anonymous — Wed, 21 Jun 2023 05:33:20 GMT

Morning,

Thank you. If the connection is ok at the ONT but not wired at the router then I think we should send a replacement router for testing purposes to rule this out. Would this be ok? We would also send a router returns bag so that one of the routers can be returned.

Thanks

Re: RE: Constant packet loss and ping variance when accessing any Internet service via Ethernet o...

Double000 — Wed, 21 Jun 2023 10:16:30 GMT

I do not think that is a good idea because I have already had 3 routers and all do the same thing.

The ONT is most likely at fault; it may work when connected directly to a computer but does not perform correctly when paired to a router.

I already expressed this in my earlier comments.

If the router were at fault then what logical reason would justify the same fault against all 3 routers and why would it be solved with a 4th?

The only other logical explanation is that a firmware update had been silently pushed that makes the routers incompatible with my current ONT but if that were the case than many people would be complaining about the same issue.

Again 2 routers are brand new and were received on the 17/06/2023 and the 19/06/2023 and both demonstrate the same result as the original router when paired with the ONT.

The ONT is the common factor NOT the router.

Can you send me an ONT please?

Re: RE: Constant packet loss and ping variance when accessing any Internet service via Ethernet o...

Chris-TalkTalk — Wed, 21 Jun 2023 10:51:41 GMT

Hi Double000,

There's new firmware available for the router, I think we should give it a try, is it OK to update your router now?

Chris

Re: RE: Constant packet loss and ping variance when accessing any Internet service via Ethernet o...

Double000 — Wed, 21 Jun 2023 10:53:19 GMT

Yes that is fine. Thank you

Re: RE: Constant packet loss and ping variance when accessing any Internet service via Ethernet o...

Chris-TalkTalk — Wed, 21 Jun 2023 10:54:36 GMT

Could you just give me the last 4 digits of the router serial number so that I can confirm that I have the correct one

Thanks

Chris

Re: RE: Constant packet loss and ping variance when accessing any Internet service via Ethernet o...

Double000 — Wed, 21 Jun 2023 10:58:20 GMT

0818

Re: RE: Constant packet loss and ping variance when accessing any Internet service via Ethernet o...

Chris-TalkTalk — Wed, 21 Jun 2023 11:00:24 GMT

That's fine, I'll start the update now, it can take up to 10 minutes to complete, please don't switch off your router

Thanks
Chris

Re: RE: Constant packet loss and ping variance when accessing any Internet service via Ethernet o...

Chris-TalkTalk — Wed, 21 Jun 2023 11:01:26 GMT

The update has started, it should complete within 10 minutes

Re: RE: Constant packet loss and ping variance when accessing any Internet service via Ethernet o...

Double000 — Wed, 21 Jun 2023 11:26:47 GMT

Thank you, I have logged into the router and can see that the firmware has been updated (from SG4K100158 to SG4K100174) and as such have performed some packet loss tests using an Ethernet connected computer.

Unfortunately the results are no better.

Re: RE: Constant packet loss and ping variance when accessing any Internet service via Ethernet o...

Chris-TalkTalk — Wed, 21 Jun 2023 11:34:26 GMT

Thanks for retesting. If you run the tests on one device with all other devices disconnected from the router (wired and wireless) do you still experience the problem?

Chris

Re: RE: Constant packet loss and ping variance when accessing any Internet service via Ethernet o...

Double000 — Wed, 21 Jun 2023 11:38:58 GMT

Yes the problem persists, this was also done on router 1 and router 2.

Re: RE: Constant packet loss and ping variance when accessing any Internet service via Ethernet o...

Chris-TalkTalk — Wed, 21 Jun 2023 11:47:02 GMT

Thanks. Are you experiencing any problems with your service, slow webpages, buffering when stream or pixelation etc?

Chris

Re: RE: Constant packet loss and ping variance when accessing any Internet service via Ethernet o...

Double000 — Wed, 21 Jun 2023 11:56:31 GMT

No, watching Youtube videos or accessing websites does not reveal any issues but as expressed in earlier comments those are non-time critical examples and will further work to buffer information before displaying it to help deal with late or loss packets. Providing the packet loss is not in Megabytes at a time I would never see a problem with watching Youtube or accessing a website.

Aside from the packet loss test software the issue will also be visible though in the rendering of online games as these are time critical and as mentioned again will also be represented using their network checking software.

Re: RE: Constant packet loss and ping variance when accessing any Internet service via Ethernet o...

Chris-TalkTalk — Wed, 21 Jun 2023 12:08:13 GMT

So just to confirm, you are experiencing performance issues when gaming?

Chris