topic Re: 3rd Party Router in Full Fibre

3rd Party Router

ONTnonotagain — Thu, 06 Jul 2023 19:44:09 GMT

Hi 1st post, 💬

I've been trying to get a 3rd party router to work direct from the ONT a CF one, having spent hours reading I know the issue is the inability to turn on the Vlan ID to 0 *zero*.

So I use the chat function to discuss turning off the Vlan as mine only works enabled on the Sagefast, after going through the motions with what I assume was really Ai with a human name? I get first to ap my 3rd party, then I get told that to switch off the Vlan will make my connection unstable before getting hit with the ultimate confidence booster "Could you explain what a Vlan ID is" 👀 it disconnected after my last reply which was polite enough and not one of those slam the phone down ones.

From all of this I deduct that TT doesn't want me to use a different router, 😡 so is it possible to turn off the Vlan or not at their end as suggested has happened with other users? If I'm stuck like this it looks like I'll be looking elsewhere when the contract ends, I didn't have any of this when I was on copper and if they insist on us having to use their equipment I find that poor as all ISP equipment is like anything free...functional, I've also noticed the bungled FW update recently where the limited advanced options have vanished which is another reason why I prefer my own gear. 🤗

It's also fair to say I've been with this company through 3 incantations that I can remember for a very long time and this is the first time I've had cause to have to have a moan.

Any further help appreciated,

Onta.

Re: 3rd Party Router

Chris-TalkTalk — Fri, 07 Jul 2023 06:33:18 GMT

Hi ONTnonotagain,

Could I just ask, are you on a Openreach circuit or City Fibre?

Chris

Re: 3rd Party Router

ONTnonotagain — Sat, 08 Jul 2023 09:42:42 GMT

Hi Chris,

It's a City Fibre one.

I'm having to use the TT router atm and that only works with Vlan ID enabled, the 3rd party router doesn't allow me to set a Vlan of 0 and will only allow for a Vlan of 02 - 4095

I've been through the process of trying 101. 911 & a host of other suggested Vlan ID's & they all fail because they are the older fibre settings, the 3rd party is a TP Link one.

Onta.

Re: 3rd Party Router

Chris-TalkTalk — Fri, 07 Jul 2023 08:05:43 GMT

OK thanks, l'll take a look at this and get back to you

Chris

Re: 3rd Party Router

Chris-TalkTalk — Fri, 07 Jul 2023 08:16:10 GMT

I'll make a change that will hopefully resolve the problem but it can take a few hours to take effect

Chris

Re: 3rd Party Router

ONTnonotagain — Fri, 07 Jul 2023 08:23:22 GMT

Thanks Chris,

I'll keep an eye out for the disconnect and adjust the router settings if need be, they may adjust it automatically at your end anyway so it doesn't drop for long, I'll update you later as to how things progressed.

Onta.

Re: 3rd Party Router

Chris-TalkTalk — Fri, 07 Jul 2023 08:24:36 GMT

OK thanks 🙂

Re: 3rd Party Router

mrwrighty — Fri, 07 Jul 2023 08:46:55 GMT

I've used many routers with TT so there is no restriction from TT on using your own router, this was particularly true for ADSL/VDSL services. However with FTTP Fibre services the VLAN ID is important. The fact you have a router than does not allow a VLAN ID of 0 is not the fault of TT but more a fact that the router you have purchased is not fully compatible with the FTTP service.

If TT can change the VLAN ID that is great for you, but if not then you will have no choice but to find a compatible router.

I'm currently using a Unifi UDM router with TT Full fibre and all is good. The VLAN ID can be set to zero.

Re: 3rd Party Router

ONTnonotagain — Fri, 07 Jul 2023 09:11:15 GMT

Hi Mr W,

Yeah the problem I had was that most of the ones you can configure were either too expensive or not very secure or a combo of both, I had the AX82U in mind but Asus are constantly having to issue CVE patches plus it's always out of stock, the Vigor is just too much for what it is & after finding one of your old posts I had a look at the Ubiquiti but they're out of stock & Ubi seem to like to retain control of the unit more than other makers. Nothing is 100% but some of the names you'd assume would be on the ball really aren't. Asus I think suffers through popularity.

My journey into 3rd parties started when the D-Link that was supplied many years ago was like leaving a window open & I found out the hard way that simply plugging it in and relying on the isp to regularly update or configure was a bad idea. If anyone is interested in configuration etc search for RouterSecurity.org, it's an American fella who covers the lot Michael Horowitz on his own site, very focused & also his site & those he sends you off to to do tests are clean & clear of nasties & trackers. *edit if you have to admin*

I originally bought the AX when the install completed but took it back as it wouldn't connect, I then decided to buy it again for AP purposes plus it had dropped in price by 25% by then. I'm hoping simply turning off the Vlan fixes things as that means anything will work with it in future, if this becomes the case I'm off out to get a better unit & the one I have will be on Gummy soon.

Onta.

Re: 3rd Party Router

mrwrighty — Fri, 07 Jul 2023 09:20:54 GMT

Have a look at UK sellers such as 4gon.co.uk or NetXL.co.uk. They sell all Ubiquiti kit including the UDR and UDM. If cost is important then the UDR will fit the bill. It has POE, Wifi6 built in ethernet and storage for protect cameras. The UDR is no good for 1Gbps internet speeds, you don't say what speed you have. the UDR will max out at around 700mbps with not protection services enabled and around 550mbps with IDS/IPS enabled. The UDM series UDM, UDMPro and UDMSE and all more powerful and cost more. the UDM is the entry level device but does not include Wifi6 (Do you need it) and no POE or internal storage but good for 1gbps services. The UDMSE is big bucks and can handle much faster internet speeds.

Warning DO NOY BUY FROM AMAZON, they are not resellers and are not warrantied. Buy from a UK reseller or the UK UI site if in stock. The only caveat is the UK resellers only give a 1 year warranty where was buying from UI direct you get 2 years. Bear in mind this kit is prosumer, not plug and play.

Re: 3rd Party Router

ONTnonotagain — Fri, 07 Jul 2023 09:29:58 GMT

Thx MrW.

That's a plus for Ubi that they continue to support the UDR series rather than have abandoned it like most other's do, it's a balance of buy expensive and it may do 6 years service with support or buy cheap and bin it 2 years later knowing support will be sporadic at best, as things move fast sometimes it's better to go the cheap route just to be able to not worry about chipset vulnerabilities which can't be fixed with a patch etc plus that shop that buys things gives something back out of the overall cost if you can't be bothered to sell it yourself from home.

I'll see what Chris has come up with today and update how it went later as I hate reading threads where there's a solution but the OP didn't bother to say what it was, oh yeah I got it working doesn't cut it for me, having read you in the past I think you're of the same opinion?

Onta.

Re: 3rd Party Router

mrwrighty — Fri, 07 Jul 2023 09:39:37 GMT

The UDR is their latest incarnation of the Dream Machine series but refer to it as the Dream Router instead. It is the same shape and size as the UDMBase unit (A Large Tictac).

If you are interested in these get on the community.ui.com forum and read about them and the support you get. These devices tend to be cheaper than the competition because support is generally through the community, support direct with Unifi is hit and miss. If you want 24/7 telephone support this costs businesses big money.

Re: 3rd Party Router

ONTnonotagain — Sat, 08 Jul 2023 09:06:05 GMT

Hi Chris,

Update is this,

I haven't experienced any loss of service or disconnects today, I've tried twice turning off the Vlan Tagging at 4 hour intervals on the sagefast which then loses the connection until enabled again, it doesn't appear that anything has been changed for me tbh.

I've not tried to set the 3rd party up as a direct to the ONT as it means resetting it and I know it isn't going to work as it currently is because if it was going to work it would also work with the Sage tagging disabled?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

@ Mr Wrighty,

I was doing some looking and I stumbled upon this, it's on reddit btw,

Unifi Network Application no longer allows VLAN 0 - breaks ATT bypass

Basically the title. Was trying to upgrade from 7.4.92 to 7.5.156 and it no longer allows VLAN 0 in either the new or "legacy" interface. This breaks the ATT bypass which requires VLAN 0 to talk to the ATT gateway.

Up until I saw that I was going to wax the trigger finger on one having had a good gander at the dashboard of it, there's a Tube user called Willie Howe and he's done lots of helpful config video's about the tic tac.

This is the google for it as I don't know if linking is ok here or not..

Unifi Network Application no longer allows VLAN 0

Onta.

Re: 3rd Party Router

mrwrighty — Sat, 08 Jul 2023 07:54:15 GMT

Was trying to upgrade from 7.4.92 to 7.5.156 and it no longer allows VLAN 0 in either the new or "legacy" interface. This breaks the ATT bypass which requires VLAN 0 to talk to the ATT gateway.

Well that’s interesting because 7.5.156 does not exist, but 7.4.156 does I’ve been running it and in fact now running 7.4.162 and it still has VLAN ID 0.

VLAN ID

The post refers to a USG which is a different device. 7.5 Will be another release in the future but nobody knows what it will contain or change and that can be said for every single firmware release for any device.

Re: 3rd Party Router

ONTnonotagain — Sat, 08 Jul 2023 09:07:05 GMT

Hi Mr W,

I posted it to give you a head start for potential future issues, I wasn't sure which of their products has been altered to strike off the Vlan 0 but thought you'd appreciate the news anyway.

I've done some more hard looking at it and I'm going to have to say it's not for me mainly due to the enforced cloud account to be able to fully configure it, it's a shame as the more I looked at it the more it became an option but with the potential that they may turn the 0 function off at a later date and the cloud thing it's just too much to spend on something that could be no more connectable than what I currently have but thank you for pointing it out to me anyway.

I'm guessing Chris is done for the weekend so it looks like Monday before this can progress.

Onta.

Re: 3rd Party Router

mrwrighty — Sat, 08 Jul 2023 09:15:48 GMT

Sorry but you are wrong. The UDR and UDM series are fully configurable locally. The cloud is a valuable option allowing full Config remotely. You need to do much more research on these devices. If you don’t want to use the cloud option you can turn off remote access and fully configure locally. Believe I have 6 of these installed privately and for business clients. They are all local access and configuration. There are other devices called cloud keys etc but never used those and don’t intend too.

Re: 3rd Party Router

ONTnonotagain — Sat, 08 Jul 2023 09:26:39 GMT

I'm just going on what I'm finding as I go along tbh & the article that said about the cloud was an early report so maybe they've since adjusted things, I'll continue to read up on it & thanks for your help on it anyway.

Onta.

Re: 3rd Party Router

mrwrighty — Sat, 08 Jul 2023 13:35:45 GMT

Cloud or remote access has been around since these devices were launched but it’s entirely optional and can be disabled. Either way you have full local access to configuration. From an admin point of view the cloud access is great because I don’t have to go to site to change settings.

Note these are prosumer units and not plug and play so require a level of interaction to configure properly. That said most good routers should also provide options to customise all aspects of a network.

Note the screenshot I post was from local access not cloud access.

Re: 3rd Party Router

ONTnonotagain — Sat, 08 Jul 2023 15:13:14 GMT

Cheers, configuration doesn't worry me it's anything cloud based as imo you might as well ask a stranger to mind your phone at the bar while you go somewhere else for a few minutes as proven by Ubi themselves when a staff member went rogue a couple of years ago, another convenience idea not thought out properly and no consideration to what can and does go wrong.

I'll tee up my options on it soon and decide which way to go unless Chris comes up with a worker next week, it might be for good reason that they want us to stick with their stuff but an explanation why would be nice.

Onta.

Re: 3rd Party Router

ONTnonotagain — Sat, 08 Jul 2023 15:11:42 GMT

Hi Chris,

No dice I'm afraid nothing changed at all,

Tried non invasive measures first simply turning off the Vlan ID on the Sagefast, webpages stopped loading.

Tried to add to the 3rd party config & it still wouldn't connect.

Tried a factory restore on the 3rd party and used the wizard for set up, then tried the vlan settings's, iptv, ipv6, slack, stateless, QoS, DHCP etc etc etc still no joy, I did find an option in Routing to select either Lan/Wan or Wan but these are internal to the router not web facing options by the looks of things.

Look forward to your input/news on Monday when you're back behind the desk, enjoy the weekend.

Onta.