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Sorry you are leaving us email from TT

MJOsb
Team Player
Message 20 of 20

I received a "sorry you are leaving us .." email from TT that stated a contract end date and an early termination fee of a £100.  I did not authorise any cancellation, I am not leaving TT and I certainly did not contact TT.

 

It appears this is a result of a scam - other ISPs just contact TT with your phone number and set in process a switch to them.  In my case it was "Guaranteed Telecom". They don't need proof they represent the customer, and don't provide any proof at all.  TalkTalk just accept it and set the cancellation in train - no checking, no corroborating of account details to see if it is a mistake.  Googling shows this is a common scam and TT are well aware of it - but just excuse their lack of rigour in protecting the contract from wrong cancellation - they just blame Ofcom rules (maybe the new instant switching legislation).

 

What I find doubly frustrating is that they wave penalty fees in my face and say a contract is a contract yet blindly accept a cancellation or switch from any Tom Richard or Harry ISP.   I don't trust TT to look after my interests - as much as I trust them to look after my Passwords!

 

Surely they need to sort out this very common problem.

19 REPLIES 19

Message 1 of 20

Of course the provider who has repeatedly tried to slam your line didn't argue. 

 

Please let us know when you get a reply from Ofcom, I would be interested to read how we are not following their guidelines.

 

Regards

Message 2 of 20

Hi I'm I'm seriously regretting flagging your post for assistance. A good informative answer has come to you from the Talktalk team (Arne) and the volunteer unpaid Community Stars, by no means Talktalk apologists, have striven manfully to answer your repeated points. Why not let Ofcom, the rule makers deal with this?

I don't work here and all my opinions are my own.

Message 3 of 20

@Gondola I suggest you read up on contract law. Its not difficult to understand.

 

Ironically the gaining ISP did behave more responsibly when I contacted them. They didn’t argue the toss like TalkTalk nor did they say “we can’t because of ‘rules’. They responded immediately without question and stopped their repeated attempts to switch, and agreed to remove all data related to my line. 

 

It is a pity TalkTalk look like the fly by night in comparison. Have they not learnt anything since being fined by Ofcom in the slamming case?

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Message 4 of 20

Hi @MJOsb 

 

You repeatedly come up with 'contract law' as an excuse for supposedly refusing a switch. The 'losing CP' is simply required by Ofcom to respond to the notification by the 'gaining CP' to write a letter to the customer to include details of:

  • the services which are affected,
  • the services which are unaffected, and
  • any applicable early termination charges that relate to the services you currently take.
  • also give details of the switch, including a reasonable estimate of the date it will happen.

Your new provider must also keep a record of your consent to switch services for a minimum of 12 months.

 

The early termination charges is the bit that deals with the existing contract and hence contract law.  The 'losing CP' is not entitled to refuse a switch because a contract is in place. It's not difficult to understand.

 

Ofcom will put you straight and will investigate your case of slamming.

GondolaVolunteer 2017-2021

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Message 5 of 20

The  "sorry that you are leaving" message from TalkTalk is the only thing they can do when they have received a notification  to switch provider, even in this case when you have clearly been the victim of slamming. So that is the prompt for you to confirm, or deny otherwise. You should be aiming your ire at the slammer, simple as.

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Message 6 of 20

As I say repeatedly - talktalk do not have my consent as required by Ofcom. This is also contract law. Your talktalk centric view of Ofcom rules is selective. If your view of the rules is that consent is not needed, then that makes the Ofcom position contrary to contract law.

 

The benefits of auto switching are slight.  This is "frustration" from losing CPs holding on to a customer illegally versus the monetary loss and service loss from customers being illegally slammed.

 

Ofcom:

Providers must also keep records of each consumer’s consent to switch, to protect against ‘slamming’ - where a customer’s supplier is changed without their knowledge or consent.

 

I will await Ofcom. I don't trust TalkTalk.

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Message 7 of 20

Hi @MJOsb 

 

I've given you the Ofcom switching process as clearly presented on the Ofcom website and in play by all CP's since 2015.

 

Ofcom require the losing CP to write to the customer in response to being notified by the gaining CP of the customer order to switch.  Ofcom then ask the losing CP to react to the customer requesting a stop to the switch if the customer fails to get the gaining CP to agree to stop the switch.  Ofcom are very clear on this point that the 'losing CP' must not arbitrarily stop a switch process initiated by a 'gaining CP'.

 

Under the 'old system', pre 2015, many switches failed because the 'losing CP' tried to hang on to customers by stopping switches taking place.  The new rules put an end to this frustration of switching.

 

Whilst putting control entirely in the hands of the 'gaining CP' does present risks, as you have unfortunately discovered, there are severe penalties that Ofcom will duly impose on any rogue 'gaining CP'.

GondolaVolunteer 2017-2021

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Message 8 of 20

You have not shown me where talktalk's process complies with Ofcom stating that consent needs to be sought.   

 

The onus should not be for the customer to "notify" and stop the process - as most slammed customers don't even know a termination is in process - and TT notification process is not reliable - as I explained.

 

As for tagging a line.  This is precisely what I requested after the second slam. I was assured that was in place by TT 's quite dismissive Customer Service Manager. 2 days later I was slammed a third time and so clearly their tagging process was impotent or I was lied to by Claire at TT CSMT.

 

Tagging a line is the only way to force switching back to the old method (which did protect customers from slamming leading directly to termination). Now TalkTalk have no fail safe protection from slamming then all customers are vulnerable.

 

As for stopping the slam - I have done it all - three times in 7 days. How many more times should I tolerate the onslaught on my contract?

 

The irony?  I want out of my contract now - I don't trust TalkTalk.

I'll await Ofcoms response to the complaint. I will not rely on Talktalk to do the right thing.

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Message 9 of 20

Hi @MJOsb 

 

TalkTalk can stop a switch so long as it's notified in time, exactly as per the newspaper article reports. I understand a Communications Provider (CP) can also arrange with Openreach for a 'line to be tagged' to stop a specific line being taken over without the CP's consent.

 

Whilst we all wish to see 'rogue' switching eliminated your suggestion that the losing CP must record a customer's consent to switching goes completely against the 2015 introduction of Ofcom's 'gaining provider led' switching process.

 

Ofcom advice on how to deal with 'slamming' is here. Notify the 'gaining CP' at least 10 days before the switch and if they refuse then notify the 'losing CP' 24-48 hours before the switch is scheduled. 

GondolaVolunteer 2017-2021

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Message 10 of 20

Those ofcom paragraphs you quote are for the customer, not the ISP.  The ISP process that TalkTalk follow omits the key element:

 

Ofcom:  "Providers must also keep records of each consumer’s consent to switch, to protect against ‘slamming’ - where a customer’s supplier is changed without their knowledge or consent."

 

Show me where in TalkTalk's process they do that?

 

As someone who has been hit 3 times I can tell you that they don't do that.

 

If that letter was to be compliant it would have to include the fail safe sentence: "TalkTalk will only proceed with the termination once we receive confirmation from you of your intention to switch"

 

If you read the Guardian article above you will see that they terminate without complying with the Ofcom requirement.  Consent is fundamental to contract law - that is why we have all that recording of phone calls and jumping through hoops.  And that is why it is doubly insulting to go through all manner of security questions just to speak to a call centre yet they are more than happy to cancel my contract without speaking with me.  Surely someone in TalkTalk sees what double standards that is and has studied contract law.

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Message 11 of 20

Hi @MJOsb 

 

You're 100% correct that Ofcom need to take action about Guaranteed Telecom if they are abusing the switching rules.

 

But you're misinterpreting Ofcom's 'gaining provider led process'. Ofcom's guide is here.

 

It says: "Under a 'gaining provider led process', your new provider will arrange the transfer for you.

 

You only need to contact the provider you wish to switch to, who will notify your old provider of the intended transfer - you do not need to cancel your contract with your old provider.

 

If you change your mind, you must contact your new provider to cancel your request to switch.

 

Once you have contacted your new provider to begin the switching process, both your new provider and the provider you're leaving must both send you a notification letter to inform you of the switch.

 

The letter from the provider you are leaving must include details of:

  • the services which are affected,
  • the services which are unaffected, and
  • any applicable early termination charges that relate to the services you currently take.

The letters from the provider you are leaving and your new provider must also give details of the switch, including a reasonable estimate of the date it will happen.

 

Your new provider must also keep for a minimum of 12 months a record of your consent to switch services."

 

TalkTalk follow Ofcom's process and the safeguard against 'slamming' is the letter that TalkTalk send to the customer. 

GondolaVolunteer 2017-2021

 Like below to appreciate my help . . . Mark as solved + Accept as Solution

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Message 12 of 20

 

 

If you read the Ofcom link that you provided it has a significant paragraph:

 

"Providers must also keep records of each consumer’s consent to switch, to protect against ‘slamming’ - where a customer’s supplier is changed without their knowledge or consent."

 

Clearly in all TalkTalk's process they fail to do this, and staff don't know about this paragraph.  @Arne-TalkTalk  all your staff do not understand this and simply re-state the same "it is the rules we don't do checks".   As documented by others and myself  (https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/mar/27/talktalk-contract-cancelled-third-party-request ) , if a customer does not contact TalkTalk the termination goes to completion, the penalty is levied and the services are cut off.  This is my point about UK contract law - you can't terminate unless it is with authority of the contract parties. the new ISP is not party to that contract.

 

So TT are right to accept a 3rd party request to switch but they are wrong to let that request proceed to termination without authority. It is upto TalkTalk to contact their customer and get that authority. Currently TT terminate without receiving any confirmation of customer's authority.   

 

TalkTalk should be more aware of the risk of fraud - especially as they were fined by Ofcom for their own slamming methods.

 

TalkTalk customers are especially vulnerable to slamming because their account details are easily traded after the hacking scandal of a few years ago.  Most TT customers will have had phishing attempts in the past because of this - and often it is difficult to differentiate between a legitimate TT call centre call and a scammer, and indeed legitimate TT emails and scam emails.   So it is no surprise when critical termination emails are missed and vulnerable customers are slammed so easily when TT have no fail safe protections in place to prevent contracts being fraudulently terminated and penalties levied.

 

Ofcom need to come down on ISPs like TalkTalk and Guaranteed Telecom now.

Arne-TalkTalk
Support Team
Message 13 of 20

Hi @MJOsb

 

I'm sorry that you are receiving these orders from this provider.

 

Its actually Ofcom rules which set out that switching providers is "Gaining provider Led" meaning that We are not allowed to refuse an order from another provider The full process can be found on their website.

 

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/about-ofcom/latest/media/media-releases/2015/easier-bb-switching

 

Unfortunately this can be abused in the form of Slamming, as most providers only need a postcode and phone number to place an order, which this particular provider seems to have yours.  I would suggest contacting Guaranteed Telecom directly and asking them to forget your details as is your right under GDPR rules. 

 

Details are:

» Phone : 0844 412 7722 Fax: 0844 856 9939
» Email : support@guaranteedtelecom.co.uk
» Web : www.guaranteedtelecom.co.uk
» Post : Suite 48, 88-90 Hatton Garden London, EC1N 8PN

 

I hope that helps, and does not cause you any further inconvenience.  

 

Regards

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Message 14 of 20

A third email has arrived from TT showing termination in process has been initiated for the 3rd time in 7 days.   This despite TT CS assuring me that they will prevent it happening a third or fourth time by putting a note on file that termination can only occur if they have my written authority to do so.

 

This is an intolerable situation.

Ofcom say this is TalkTalk's slack processes.

Message 15 of 20

Thanks I8this. I have submitted a complaint to Ofcom.

 

What is frustrating is that TalkTalk know about this scam, and must surely know this company is a scammer... so why do they progress such requests without checking?

 

If any customer misses the email (or it is junk, as a lot of TalkTalk stuff is) then the termination happens to completion without any confirmation from the customer.  I can not understand how a legally binding contract can be be closed without BOTH parties being involved.  Surely that is not fail safe?

Message 16 of 20

@MJOsb 

 

Report Guaranteed Telecom to ofcom.

 

https://ofcomforms.secure.force.com/formentry/SitesFormCCTSwitchedWithoutPermission

If case you have forgotten the Do’s and Don’ts. There are members that have. Remember:-Be yourself and tell it like it is,. Be courteous to other customers. Give others the benefit of the doubt. Update your community profile. The Forum Guidelines apply to ALL members there are/should be, NO exceptions. If you have nothing nice to say, then say nothing at all. Now a wizard.
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Message 17 of 20

Update.

 

I called TT and got them to stop the illegal switch. 

This is called "slamming" whereby fly by night ISPs try to close your contract down early.  

TT offered a derisory £5 goodwill payment.

 

Then two days later it happened again.  The same "sorry you are leaving..." email from TT.

I call TT again and today they confirm the contract is closing and moving over to ..... guess who?   Yes - Guaranteed Telecom.   So as soon as Guaranteed Telecom were notified that their attempt to steal the contract was refused they tried again.

 

TalkTalk:  How many times do I have to suffer this risk of the contract being stolen?

Why can't you stop known Slammers doing this?

MJOsb
Team Player
Message 18 of 20

If you google Guaranteed Telecom you will find they are noted for scams: this switching ISP scam and also for heavy handed  cold call selling of call blocking services to vulnerable people.  Guaranteed Telecom is a Limited company registered in Britain but the sole Director is resident in India.

 

I wonder if this scam is enabled by unscrupulous companies getting access to TT customer account details and passwords after the TT hack a few years ago.  Certainly I also get a lot of scammers calling who appear to know I am a TT customer and try to gain access to my bank account with Phishing methods.

 

TalkTalk need to update their processes that permit this scam. How can a binding contract between TT and their customers be terminated by a third party who is not party to the contract and not demonstrated any agent's authority of the customer to represent them?   Why does TT not ask for a letter of authority?  This is scandalous.

Divsec
Community Star
Message 19 of 20

Hi Mj, your post has been flagged for assistance and you should hear during the day.

I don't work here and all my opinions are my own.
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