cancel
Showing results for 
would you rather see results for 
Did you mean: 
Need help?

New fibre connection with Sagemcom Fast 5364

Reply
KeithFrench
Community Star

Hi @davecm

 

As to your first post, if you want anything to happen with your master socket, you will need to create your own thread.

 

In response to your second post:-

 

"Not being able to block remote access will be an issue for me."

 

You misunderstand, it is not a case that you cannot block it, it is already blocked & you can't change that due to very serious security implications. Your cloud backups are presumably initiated by client software on your PCs etc, so that is outgoing traffic. How does that have anything to do with remote access to the router? Any instability in your connection would need to be addressed, but again you will need to create your own thread.

 

However, it does not stop remote access to your devices, that is what port forwarding is for & that works fine.

Keith
I am not employed by TalkTalk, I'm just a customer. If my post has fixed the issue, please mark it as the Best Answer.
OCE's and Community Stars - Who are they? 

Anonymous
Not applicable

@davecm

 

A little confusion here, so for clarification ................

 

The remote access you are referring to is the TR069 (TalkTalk initiated) based remote access, which is enabled by default ?

 

This TR069 activity can cause temporary outages on your router which negatively impact your cloud backups causing them to fail ?

 

But I think it has already been stated that TR069 can't be disabled on the new wifi hub, as far as anyone on these forum knows.

 

ToughTalk
Chatterbox
Hi davecm,

No, I haven't experienced this with my replacement although the engineer did comment on the poor build quality of these sockets. They also protrude further into the room than the previous ones but that doesn't really affect me. I did however notice a small improvement in the performance which does imply the replacement was justified. Incidentally, it was a sub-contract engineer who did the work, not an Open Reach guy.
To keep your brain alive never stop learning! 'Live as if you were to die tomorrow, learn as if you were to live forever.' Mahatma Gandhi
davecm
Conversation Starter

Thanks for your reply.

So, if I understand you correctly, just to be sure, I'll spell out what I got from your reply...

The several times weekly TalkTalk process seen in the router logs (captured continuously by my NAS log server), that currently accesses my Huawei HG635 router at 4-5am, checks the comms to the internet, updates a setting, drops the carrier for 60 sec, then reconnects (presumably to activate or test the changed setting), and could if required update the firmware....does not happen, and cannot happen, with the new Sagemcom model? I agree that is a potential security risk.

 

That's good news. I had a (work) tech support contact at Openreach check the router log, and he said it's normal practice for some ISPs and their routers.

 

That presumably means that firmware updates for the new router will be checked for and applied by me? Seems quite likely  to be needed for a new model, with TT customised firmware.

 

I have recently installed a NAS which came with the vendors own cloud backup service. The NAS backup utility is configured to run a series of backups over the internet each night, which normally run for a few minutes each at midnight and finish within 30 min. Occasionally, there will be a backup that takes from 6 to 24 hours, (say a new Windows 10 feature update disk image or a PC full file backup). When testing that scenario, the backups failed due to the Huawei remote maintenance dropping the carrier for 60 sec. Disabling remote maintenance seems to have cured it.

 

Various NAS software packages may update router port forwarding rules via upnp. That works fine on the Huawei, and it is listed as a supported model by the NAS vendor. Any idea if that is also likely to work with the new router, which may not yet be listed as supported? i.e. is it an industry standard, or router specific process? Guess I'll soon find out 🙂

Windows, Android, Synology NAS
davecm
Conversation Starter

There was a slight speed increase following the installation of the latest master socket design.

The replacement was necessary due to a loose or dirty connection in the original master socket.

Removing and replacing the old style master socket faceplate several times during testing seemed to have cleaned the contacts between the faceplate and the test socket, and enabled the expected speed.

I had ordered the fibre speed boost, but initially the upload speed doubled and the download speed stayed at 37 Mbits/s, so some fault-finding was needed, and a new socket fitted later.

Windows, Android, Synology NAS
davecm
Conversation Starter

I think another reply arrived while I was typing earlier, which appears to contradict what was said in the first reply regarding remote access being disabled

I think we are talking about 2 different things.

I'm talking about the TR069 process interrupting cloud backup and restore. If that can't be prevented, then the new router may have to be returned, and I'll buy a suitable retail one with the latest wi-fi specs.

My Openreach contact seemed to suggest that the ISP could disable it, but didn't go into details. He may have meant that the ISP could remotely access the router settings and turn off remote maintenance in the firmware, which I did myself on the Huawei, and seems not to be possible on the Sagemcom.

He may have meant that the ISP can disable it at network level for an individual users internet connection. Anyone know if that is possible? I did ask Talktalk support, but they didn't understand what I was referring to. Above their pay grade I think 🙂

Windows, Android, Synology NAS
Anonymous
Not applicable

@davecm wrote:

Thanks for your reply.

So, if I understand you correctly, just to be sure, I'll spell out what I got from your reply...

The several times weekly TalkTalk process seen in the router logs (captured continuously by my NAS log server), that currently accesses my Huawei HG635 router at 4-5am, checks the comms to the internet, updates a setting, drops the carrier for 60 sec, then reconnects (presumably to activate or test the changed setting), and could if required update the firmware....does not happen, and cannot happen, with the new Sagemcom model? I agree that is a potential security risk.

 

TR069 activity is normally collecting statistical information about the performance of your router. Firmware updates are actually quite rare. It is enabled by default on all TT routers, with earlier routers you could disable TR069, that is not possible with the new wifi hub, TR069 is enabled.

Not any more of a security risk than with any other TT router.

 

That's good news. I had a (work) tech support contact at Openreach check the router log, and he said it's normal practice for some ISPs and their routers.

 

Virtually all ISP's use this technique in some form or other, BTOR use it to distribute new firmware upgardes.

 

That presumably means that firmware updates for the new router will be checked for and applied by me? Seems quite likely  to be needed for a new model, with TT customised firmware.

 

Any firmware upgrades (very few and far between) are automatically applied via TR069 if it is enabled. TT does not allow "self updating".

 

I have recently installed a NAS which came with the vendors own cloud backup service. The NAS backup utility is configured to run a series of backups over the internet each night, which normally run for a few minutes each at midnight and finish within 30 min. Occasionally, there will be a backup that takes from 6 to 24 hours, (say a new Windows 10 feature update disk image or a PC full file backup). When testing that scenario, the backups failed due to the Huawei remote maintenance dropping the carrier for 60 sec. Disabling remote maintenance seems to have cured it.

 

No real need to back up Window's ISOs, just download them again. Full PC image to cloud would definitly take an excessive time. Just my personal preference but I take system inages to local (external) DASD, with all key user files to OneDrive and File History selectively active on my Win 10 PC (again to an external drive). But that is just my personal choice. Belt and braces.

 

Various NAS software packages may update router port forwarding rules via upnp. That works fine on the Huawei, and it is listed as a supported model by the NAS vendor. Any idea if that is also likely to work with the new router, which may not yet be listed as supported? i.e. is it an industry standard, or router specific process? Guess I'll soon find out 🙂

 

Don't use NAS so not in a position to comment.


 

Anonymous
Not applicable

It is not uncommon with fibre regrades for the downstream not to react as quickly as the upstream.

 

Powering the router off for a minimum of 30 minutes quite often does the trick.

davecm
Conversation Starter

@Anonymous wrote:

Firstly, many thanks for your helpful and informative comments. I'll add in a few of my own, just in case anyone else needs to learn something from this.

@davecm wrote:

Thanks for your reply.

So, if I understand you correctly, just to be sure, I'll spell out what I got from your reply...

The several times weekly TalkTalk process seen in the router logs (captured continuously by my NAS log server), that currently accesses my Huawei HG635 router at 4-5am, checks the comms to the internet, updates a setting, drops the carrier for 60 sec, then reconnects (presumably to activate or test the changed setting), and could if required update the firmware....does not happen, and cannot happen, with the new Sagemcom model? I agree that is a potential security risk.

 

TR069 activity is normally collecting statistical information about the performance of your router.

Yep, logs suggest it is doing that, and also that it updates a setting.

Firmware updates are actually quite rare. It is enabled by default on all TT routers, with earlier routers you could disable TR069, that is not possible with the new wifi hub, TR069 is enabled.

Not any more of a security risk than with any other TT router.

No. Think the previous responder was referring to remote login to admin.

 

That's good news. I had a (work) tech support contact at Openreach check the router log, and he said it's normal practice for some ISPs and their routers.

So your reply confirms it's not actually good news at all 🙂

 

Virtually all ISP's use this technique in some form or other, BTOR use it to distribute new firmware upgardes.

Yep. Saw that on BT forum in realtion to Home Hubs

 

That presumably means that firmware updates for the new router will be checked for and applied by me? Seems quite likely  to be needed for a new model, with TT customised firmware.

 

Any firmware upgrades (very few and far between) are automatically applied via TR069 if it is enabled. TT does not allow "self updating".

So they've changed their policy since the Huawei models.

 

I have recently installed a NAS which came with the vendors own cloud backup service. The NAS backup utility is configured to run a series of backups over the internet each night, which normally run for a few minutes each at midnight and finish within 30 min. Occasionally, there will be a backup that takes from 6 to 24 hours, (say a new Windows 10 feature update disk image or a PC full file backup). When testing that scenario, the backups failed due to the Huawei remote maintenance dropping the carrier for 60 sec. Disabling remote maintenance seems to have cured it.

 

No real need to back up Window's ISOs, just download them again.

Not an ISO. A full image including incuding all installed software and Windows updates. So a big time saver if you need to restore - first image, then latest data only.

Full PC image to cloud would definitly take an excessive time. Just my personal preference but I take system inages to local (external) DASD, with all key user files to OneDrive and File History selectively active on my Win 10 PC (again to an external drive). But that is just my personal choice. Belt and braces.

I have always done that, and always will, but less often now I have NAS with continuous real-time sync of all my vital accounts and invoices.

 

Various NAS software packages may update router port forwarding rules via upnp. That works fine on the Huawei, and it is listed as a supported model by the NAS vendor. Any idea if that is also likely to work with the new router, which may not yet be listed as supported? i.e. is it an industry standard, or router specific process? Guess I'll soon find out 🙂

 

Don't use NAS so not in a position to comment.

Grateful for any futher advice from someone who has the answer.


 


 

Windows, Android, Synology NAS
Anonymous
Not applicable

One point.

 

TT have always done remote firmware upgrades using the TR069 facility, they have never allowed users to upgrade their own router's firmware. There has been no change of policy on that, the only difference with the new wifi hub is that end users are not allowed to disable TR069.

 

I have no reason to believe that the new wifi hubs are any more or any less secure than any other commercial ISP supplied router.

 

I have been have performance issues with my HG633 for several months following an "automatic" upgrade. I appear to have stabilised my issue by disabling TR069, as you can on the HG routers. But that is a different story.

davecm
Conversation Starter

Just unpacked new Sagemcom Wi-Fi Hub and powered up for familiarisation with settings user interface and any issues encountered in preliminary testing. Not connected it to internet yet, as a few things I need to investigate first. Would be pleased to know if other users have noticed the same issues, and/or can provide advice on my requirements.

 

Both 2.4Ghz band and 5GHz bands have same SSID. Both my 5GHz capable laptops default to connecting on 2.4GHz band. I could change my wi-fi adapter settings to only connect on 5GHz. No point in doing that, other than as a test, as I know my 2 Android devices will also default to 2.4GHz and can't be configured otherwise.

 

WPS actually worked OK on both laptops, on 2.4GHz band, but on attempting to connect that way Windows 10 said "cannot connect" in the connection dialog, although it had connected already. Could be a Windows 10 bug, unless someone knows otherwise.

 

I changed the SSID of 5GHz band in router settings, as I had previously done on Huawei HG635.

 

On 5GHz band, WPS didn't work at all, but I can connect using password. Is that normal, a firmware bug, a Windows bug, or a "feature" of 5GHz?

 

I need to reserve in DHCP, or pre-allocate a fixed IP address to a NAS (network storage device). No problem on Huawei. Can I do it on Sagemcom and how?

 

Others have said you can't disable remote router maintenance like you can on the Huawei. Ideally need to do that as on Huawei it drops the carrier for 60 sec and causes overnight cloud backup of NAS to fail. Anyone know of a workaround? I'm thinking firewall settings, disable a protocol, etc. Otherwise, I'd have to reconnect Huawei router on nights when a long backup will run. Possible but a pain. It's possible new model maintenance won't drop the carrier. Need to test it.

 

In order to test it, I need to capture router logs to my NAS log server. Anyone know if the new model uses same protocol and port as Huawei HG635, and if I leave NAS log server settings unchanged, is it likely to work, i.e. industry standard or Huawei specific?

Windows, Android, Synology NAS
Hennerry
Chatterbox

Hi all, again. 

To follow on with this subject. I am now up and running, mixedly (I don't know if such a word exists, but I like it). As I said previously, I set up using Keith's guide. I switched on and my got lap top got high 30s wired and wireless, about 10 - 15 on my ipad. The only problem I had was trying to change the IP to something I preferred . When I changed it, I lost access to the internet and had to reset the router back to its original settings to get it back. I tried several times in case I had done something wrong, but to no avail. So I'm stuck with 192.168.1.1. However, if remote access really is blocked that shouldn't be a problem. All the other changes are ok.

Apart from that I'm very happy with its performance.

 

 

 

davecm
Conversation Starter

An update to my post on Friday 27/07/19.

I've now fully set up the new Sagemcom Wi-Fi Hub, almost exactly as I needed. I'm pleased to note that the TalkTalk Help pages have now been updated with a very clear and well-written user guide on how to get the best out of it. There are some points that could be added though, as some user's will still not get the benefits if they are not router savvy.

 

The router firmware user interface is also well designed and clear. Much better than the Huawei.

 

It's a worthwhile upgrade from the Huawei HG635 if that's what you have, and especially if you obtain it via the loyalty team for a reduced price. There are some caveats though.

It gives you faster internet/wi-fi speeds, assuming you have the 76 Mbit/s speed boost. If you have standard 38 Mbit/s fibre, your internet connection will probably not be any faster, as the line speed is the limiting factor.

 

If you have a Huawei HG633, the above applies, and you also get Gigabit ethernet speeds on the Sagecom, so any wired Gigabit devices will also have faster data transfer rates.

 

Caveats:-

I found that all my devices: 2 Windows 10 laptops, 2 Samsung Smart TVs, a Samsung smart Blu-Ray recorder, a Samsung phone and a Sony tablet, defaulted to connecting on the 2.4GHz band, even if they were 5GHz compatible. That's due to both bands having the same SSID on the router.

The wi-fi to intenet speed at 2.4GHz is 55 MBits on average. So you would not make the most of your full fibre 76 MBits speed on that band. Only my laptops have a built-in way to ensure the 5Ghz band is used by changing the wireless adapter driver settings. If you did that, you might find you are unable to connect to other people's 2.4 GHz wi-fi, so maybe best not to do it that way.

 

I changed the router SSID of the 5 GHz band by adding -5GHz to the end of the default name. All my devices can now connect on that band with a speed of 75 MBits. However, none were able to connect on that band using the WPS button. I had to type in the password. Some did connect using WPS on the 2.4GHz band. Not sure if that's a router, device, or 5GHz specific issue.

 

I have a NAS and use it for laptop backups, currently via an ethernet cable for maximum speed. I also sync all files saved/updated on laptops to the NAS in real time over wi-fi. I tested the laptop to NAS data transfer rate over wi-fi. With the Sagemcom that is currently 167 MBits/s on 5GHz band, compared to 77 MBits/s with the Huawei HG635. In theory, you could get up to 300 MBits/s, but that's dependant on many factors such as the processor in the NAS, the wi-fi card in the laptop, distance from the router etc. So a big data transfer such as a new SD card full of hi-res SLR photos, once on the laptop, would transfer to the NAS in less than half the time. Only on the 5GHz band though. If you have a recent model laptop, you may get the 300 MBits wi-fi transfer rate.

 

How could the new router firmware be improved?

 

If the default setting was separate SSIDs for the 2.4GHz and 5GHz bands, users could choose the faster band the first time they connect a wi-fi device and get the most out of it without having to change the settings. Many users may never discover that or know what the settings are for. The user guide explains very clearly how to do it, but doesn't explain why you might want to do it.

 

There's no option to enable router logs to be exported, or captured by a log server, as there is on the Huawei HG635. Only needed by me in relation to the issue below.

 

There's no option to disable remote router maintenance. For most people that's good, but if like on the Huawei, that maintenance interrupts the internet connection briefly during the night several time a week, it causes my overnight cloud backup to fail, and restoring a backup from the cloud to my PC could also fail, though less likely as it runs 4 times faster.

 

Talktalk might like to consider if they can change the TR069 overnight maintenance routine so it doesn't interrupt the connection, and if a new router setting or firmware update is applied, display a browser message prompting the user to restart the router manually the next day.

 

The white LED is very bright. It can be switched off completely, but then you can't be sure if the router is on and it's status is normal. Also, you may need to press the WPS button for up to 10 sec before the light starts to flash orange to indicate the time window you have to connect a new device. Would have been better to have a dimmer LED and on all the time, or have it light up only during WPS connection, or to signal an error.

 

All in all a good router, makes the best of the fibre speed boost option for wi-fi users, and ready for the rollout by Openreach of faster G.Fast or FTTP services. Similar options might be available from retailers for the same as the Talktalk full £120 price, and will work, but won't be supported by TalkTalk if there's a problem. If you get it free as a new customer on the speed boost fibre tariff, or cheaper from the loyalty team, it's good value.

 

 

Windows, Android, Synology NAS
stuart_smiles1
Super Duper Contributor

ref sagem love in post: 

 

I can't see data transfer at 55Mbps for 802.11g pretty unlikely in my opinon, however willing to look at test results, as previous devices I have looked at are significantly lower.  

 

look forward to seeing test results of 176Mbps for wireless on 5ghz too. 

 

300mbps transfer to a laptop sounds fast, what did you actually see, and how did you confirm it? 

 

how did you test it and do you have a document covering testing so can replicate the test and compare exactly to the results you have described as seeing.  

 

are there options to adjust mtu/mss and how does it work for port forwarding and protocol forwarding for IPSec site to site VPN? - other devices couldn't forward protocol 50. is this fixed in the Sagemcom Fast 5364?   

 

It is also interesting to see mention of:

lack of syslogs off box, inability to turn of tr069, router falling over when maintenance connections being made too.

 

is there more logging that is seen with the HG633? is the a larger buffer for logs so you can see more of a window to events? - my router says there is currently 15 hours window of logs, but there's previously only been 1/2 day or so in it. 

 

no mention of dhcp reservations others have mentioned, or dns settings being locked down how would it be used with fibre to the premises? does it have a fibre port available for use?

 

 do you have any wireless antenna signal propagation pictures to show how best to setup in a house for best coverage in the building? - or how to locate antennas, externally or with it to provide better, closer coverage to devices?

 

Is anyone maintaining a list of issues/bugs identified, rectification timescales and software updates/issues being investigated at present? 

is there a proper manual from the manufacturer, release notes, software testing results available? if there are serious issues identified or brought to talktalk's attention, what is the timescale to fix/ developer timescales for addressing updates?

Thanks Stuart
davecm
Conversation Starter

@KeithFrench wrote:

Hi @davecm

 

As to your first post, if you want anything to happen with your master socket, you will need to create your own thread.

 

In response to your second post:-

 

"Not being able to block remote access will be an issue for me."

 

You misunderstand, it is not a case that you cannot block it, it is already blocked & you can't change that due to very serious security implications. Your cloud backups are presumably initiated by client software on your PCs etc, so that is outgoing traffic. How does that have anything to do with remote access to the router? Any instability in your connection would need to be addressed, but again you will need to create your own thread.

 

However, it does not stop remote access to your devices, that is what port forwarding is for & that works fine.


Just updating this in case anyone is confused by it.

On the master socket question. Just updating to say that is now resolved, but no thanks to TalkTalk.

I will start a new thread with the full details. Bottom line is, nothing wrong with the socket. Openreach engineer had over-tightened the screws securing it to the recessed metal box in the wall, distorting the screwed-on part of the socket. That meant the the clip-on part would not stay on. Loosening the screws has fixed it.

 

On the remote access question. I was referring to the TR069 maintenance process, not remote access to admin login. Other responders have told me that continues, cannot be blocked, and cannot be disabled on the Sagemcom router like it can on the Huawei. It's also common for many/all ISPs to do such checks and maintenance, so anyone could encounter it if using their internet connection in the early hours of the morning.

What I don't understand is why it interrupts the carrier, when there is no need. e.g. No firmware update, no settings changes required, so no need to restart the service. By all means restart it to activate changes or after a firmware upgrade, when it would be both sensible and necessary.

 

The bits about cloud backup, client devices, and port forwarding are red-herrings in this context, and are due to talking at cross-purposes.

Windows, Android, Synology NAS
davecm
Conversation Starter

A futher update, in case it helps anyone. Including suggestions for firmware improvements.

 

The new router's logs are effectively almost unusable. 130 PAGES!! (not log entries) of log data in 2 days, mostly stuff that need not be logged at all. The admin login times out after a while, with a prompt to continue and remain logged in. If you select Continue while browsing the log, you still lose your place in the 130 pages and have to start over. You can't skip directly to a page, you have to page forward from page 1.

 

There's apparently no facility to export the log to a file, or to redirect it to a log server, so analysis is somewhere between difficult and impossible, when combined with the vast number of entries 🙂

 

The first few pages of log entries are obviously related to factory testing or later configuration by TalkTalk before they send them to customers with pre-configured VDSL login credentials. They are all dated 01/01/2013. Bizarrely, the 2013 dated log entries are in a different sort sequence to those created in normal use once installed.

 

There are very frequent log entries relating to Youview connections. That may be because I ditched my awful TalkTalk Youview box as soon as my first contract expired, and bought a hugely better BT one from Currys, which doesn't need rebooting every day, responds to remote button presses instantly, and when you do reboot it, it does so in 1 minute not 10.

 

The only TR069 related maintenance messages I could find since installing all said "TR069 connectivity to acs.talktalk.co.uk has failed". There was one similar message dated 01/01/2013 that didn't fail, as I'm guessing that's how they configure them with your phone number as the user-id. So if I'm really lucky, they may always fail, and my overnight cloud backups my not get interrupted after all 🙂

 

 

 

Windows, Android, Synology NAS
davecm
Conversation Starter

A previous reply asked how to test wi-fi data transfer rate between 2 devices on your home network with the new router. I'll answer that here, with the way I did it.

I created a file of exactly 1Gb, as that makes the timing and the calculations easier. You just then copy it from one laptop to another over wi-fi and time how long it takes. Then convert the timing into MBits/s.

To create the file, use the Windows command prompt and the following command:-

fsutil file createnew C:\Users\username\Desktop\1GBTest.txt 1080000000
This will create a 1GB file called 1GBTest.txt, you can adjust the numbers at the end as necessary to increase its size (in bits). That would put the file on your Windows Desktop. You can put it anywhere you like. There's no real data in it, just packed with nulls.

The calculation and comparison is shown below.

 

	With current laptop wireless card		
	Huawei HG635		Sagemcom
			
File Size Gb	1		1
Megabytes	1,024		1,024
Bytes	1,024,000,000		1,024,000,000
Bits	8,192,000,000		8,192,000,000
Transfer time in sec	  106		49
Transfer rate in Mbits/sec 77		167

Transfer Rate = (Bits/Transfer Time)/1,000,000

Hope that helps.

Windows, Android, Synology NAS
GAZZA59
Conversation Starter

@davecm

So, dave...It I were to ask you to explain IN ENGLISH (so not Techno gibberish)

:winkingface:

how to swap devices devices from Band 1 (2.4 GHz) to Band 2 (5GHz) how would you go about it?

:cooldude:  

davecm
Conversation Starter

See these instructions for renaming SSIDs for the 2 bands.

https://community.talktalk.co.uk/t5/WiFi-Hub-FAQs/Set-up-your-Wi-Fi-Hub-UFO/ta-p/2200943

Rename the 5GHz one by adding -5GHz to the end of the original name. You don't need to rename both really.

Then on your PC, phone or tablet, you'll see the new name if you proceed as you would to connect to any new wi-fi network. Select the one ending with -5GHz, enter the password and it will connect.

 

Windows, Android, Synology NAS
davecm
Conversation Starter

Doesn't look like anyone from Talktalk is reading this thread, so I'll try to answer some of the remaining questions asked by others.

 

DHCP reservations. Doesn't look like there's a way to do that for a specific device, but I found I didn't need to because the default DHCP pool starts at 192.168.1.10 which leaves the next 8 IP addresses free, after the router's own address. You can change the pool starting address if you need more than 8 reserved addresses.

 

So my NAS which is fixed at 192.168.1.3 does not conflict with any DHCP addresses allocated on the fly to other devices as they connect. Same applies to my printer.

 

 

Windows, Android, Synology NAS