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WiFi Hub Stats & Performance.

Anonymous
Not applicable
Message 94 of 94

My wifi hub has now been installed and running for a few days with DLM making no changes, so some sort of interesting stats from the gui that an OCE may want to feed back to the development team.

 

Downstream noise margin is being reported as 0.00 dB.

 

Upstream attenuation is being reported as 0.00 dB.

 

Downstream attenuation is being reported as 25.90 (usually been in the 19-21 range with previous TalkTalk super routers).

 

Upstream max rate exactly 6000 Kbps, actual upstream rate exactly 6000 Kbps, upstream noise margin exactly 6.0 dB. Now these numbers could be correct, but they do look unusually rounded. With HG633 and HG635 my max. upstream was just short of 8 Mbps, so lost performance.

 

But the thing that concerns me is the performance of this "best ever" modem-router.

 

I have listed the upstream performanc loss already.

 

With an HG635 my max. downstream was around 49 Mbps to 50 Mbps. With an actual line rate of 40 Mbps (on the 40/10 package).

 

With an HG633 my max rate dropped to around 43 Mbps, with an actual of around 38 Mbps.

 

With this new wifi hub my max. rate has dropped to 35 Mbps with an actuall of 32 Mbps. This unexpectedly large drop in downstream performance could be linked to the unexpected rise in the downstream attenuation.

 

But having spoken to someone in the faults team they are happy with this performance level as it is still within my predicted range (but massively less than I used to get). It would appear that everytime TalkTalk introduce a "new, improved" router that my performance levels go south.

 

But the wifi is better, although I never had any wifi issues, and this new router didn't resolve the issues I was having with the HG633 with V2.00t firmware.

93 REPLIES 93

Message 61 of 94

Hi iefbr14,

 

Thanks for the update, the sync speed won't be any different with the new router because your line profile is capping your speed at 32.4Mbps, DLM needs time to monitor the line with the new router and make adjustments. Could you leave the new router connected over the weekend and bump the thread on Monday, we can then check to see if there's been any improvement 


Thanks

Chris

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Anonymous
Not applicable
Message 62 of 94

@Debbie-TalkTalk

 

The new router arrived about an hour ago. I powered off and waited the full 30+ minutes before powering the new router on - and nothing. Apart from a few Kbps difference in the max and actual download speeds the reported stats are still very much questionable. I have attached a screen shot, but particularly note :-

 

Downstream SNR - 0.00 dB.

 

Downstream attenuation - 25.9 dB - this is about 25% higher than with any previous HG router. I appreciate that this number can change for various reasons, but a 25% variance ?

 

All the upstream numbers still look very rounded at exactly 6000 Kbps, 6000 Kbps, 6.00 dB, and zero attenuation ?

 

So what next ? And as before, a potentially chargeable BTOR engineer is not an option.

 New Router.jpg

 

 

p.s. I have reverted back to the original wifi hub as customising the "new" hub for no benefit appeared to be a bit redundant.

 

I can return the new hub "as new with very low mileage". Seems a pity to send it straight to recycling (or the scrap heap) or whatever you do with returns.

 

and as a p.s. @Chris-TalkTalk - in your last post you said you ignore the max. upstream and downstream rate statistics. Just because you personally (or collectively) ignore those numbers does not imply they are meaningless. Somebody bothered monitoring those numbers and visualised them for a reason.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Message 63 of 94

Hi lefrb14,

 

"I stated the SNR was increased to implement the banding - you say no the SNR is increased. Isn't that the same thing."

 

It's not really the same because the SNR isn't increased intentionally in this case, the speed is capped, the SNR just increases automatically as a consequence of this. I only mentioned it as there seems to be some confusion about the way DLM works in this scenario

 

"You seem to be ignoring the evidence of the HG635 router stats that I posted earlier in the thread. HG635 - max downstream around 10% higher than the wifi hub, even after you say it has been banded - something is obviously behaving differently there."

 

If you're referring to the theoretical maximum speed reported by the router, then yes I'm ignoring it as we don't use this information. it isn't something we refer to, I've no idea how accurate it is or what it's based on

 

"Very surprised that you don't look at the max. downstream speed. How else do you or anyone else identify if an upgrade from 40/10 to 80/20 is realistic and applicable. It is the best way to judge."

 

We look at the predicated range from Openreach and also take into account current speeds.

 

Thanks

Chris

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Anonymous
Not applicable
Message 64 of 94

 

@OCE_Chris

 

There seem to be inconsistencies in your last post.

 

I stated the SNR was increased to implement the banding - you say no the SNR is increased. Isn't that the same thing.

 

You seem to be ignoring the evidence of the HG635 router stats that I posted earlier in the thread. HG635 - max downstream around 10% higher than the wifi hub, even after you say it has been banded - something is obviously behaving differently there.

 

My line was previously banded due to repeated router and firmware changes (5 or 6 in one day !) - I fully appreciate why I was banded in the past. But I will repeat, from my perspective my line has been 100% stable, no stability issues evident. How many disconnects are you seeing and at what times ? What error rate is being reported ?

 

Because of suspected banding TT Networks checked my line at the end of May - no issues found. All this was reported on an earlier thread, which CS ferguson chose to lock thus preventing any further updates.

 

BTOR then checked my line on May 30th, no problems found, DLM reset to remove the banding. No issues since then (that I was aware of) - so why would my line have been banded again on June 23rd ? The initial banding had a known and identifiable cause, which is not apparent in this latest DLM intervention. How bad does performance have to be to induce banding ?

 

As this wifi hub insists my downstream SNR is 0.00 it has been impossible for me to identify any potential banding issues.

 

With the previous banding my max. rate stayed high, the SNR then appeared to be used as the mechanism to force my actual down to the banded level.

 

So why was my line banded again when no problems had been experienced? And does this mean another suggested BTOR engineer visit to correct this situation again ?

 

The stats that I have access to show no indication of crashes, resets etc. in the period immediately before the wifi hub was installed. It usually takes significant activity to “force” banding - I have no recent evidence of that, and you seem to be saying that you don't have any specific evidence either, only that DLM doesn’t react for no reason. No formal evidence beyond that ?

 

Very surprised that you don't look at the max. downstream speed. How else do you or anyone else identify if an upgrade from 40/10 to 80/20 is realistic and applicable. It is the best way to judge. How do you identify what performance levels a line is actually capable of supporting ? Or are you simply satisfied if a line is "within estimated bounds" ?

 

But maybe best left until the new router has been installed which will hopefully report statistics significantly more accurately.

 

EDIT - With regards to DLM activity, could you please explain this statement from

 

@Debbie-TalkTalk:-

 

I've checked the connection stats and there are some re connections showing on the line, this doesn't appear to be related to any DLM profile changes.

 

Some reconnections not related to DLM profile changes ???

 

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Message 65 of 94

Hi iefbr14

 

"With this new wifi hub my max. rate is 35 Mbps, and then you say banded down to 32.4 Mbps."

 

No, your max rate was banded by DLM to 35Mbps with the previous router on the 23rd, then DLM changed your profile again and banded it to 32.4Mbps on the 24th, again with the old router before you'd received the new one. Since then DLM has changed your profile two or three times between 32.4 and 35

 

"A high SNR was then applied to the line which reduced my "actual" line rate down to the banded performance level."

 

Capping the speed increases the SNR rather than it being the other way around

 

"The question remains why the max. with this router is only 35 Mbps - when with previous HG routers the max. stayed hign and was then banded down."

 

Not sure what you mean, if your referring the theoretical max speed reported by the router then I don't know how this is arrived at, it's not something that we ever really look at.

 

"And why was my line banded (again) when no issues were being evidenced ? The previous cause of banding was well documented in an earlier thread (which was locked by CS ferguson making updating impossible)."

 

DLM changes your profile because the number of disconnections and/or errors exceeds the number allowed by the algorithm, it won't have changed your profile for no reason even though you may not have noticed anything


Chris

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Anonymous
Not applicable
Message 66 of 94

@Chris-TalkTalk

 

From memory - when my line was previously banded my max. downstream speed stayed at its historically high level, i.e. between 43 Mbps and 49 Mbps depending whether vectoring was being correctly identified or not.

 

A high SNR was then applied to the line which reduced my "actual" line rate down to the banded performance level.

 

With this new wifi hub my max. rate is 35 Mbps, and then you say banded down to 32.4 Mbps.

 

An actual line rate of 32.4 Mbps I would suggest is a reasonable value if the router is only receiving 35 Mbps. But as this wifi hub reports that my downstream SNR is 0.00 dB is becomes challenging to identify the overhead reduction.

 

The gui results I posted a couple of days ago show that the max. downstream when using an HG635 is signifiantly higher than the max. downstream reported when I use the wifi hub. Banding or no banding should not (as far as I know) effect those max. values.

 

The question remains why the max. with this router is only 35 Mbps - when with previous HG routers the max. stayed hign and was then banded down.

 

And why was my line banded (again) when no issues were being evidenced ? The previous cause of banding was well documented in an earlier thread (which was locked by CS ferguson making updating impossible).

 

Curious.

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Message 67 of 94

Hi iefbr14

 

OK, thanks. Your sync speed actually seems to have dropped a few days before you received the wifi hub, DLM changed your profile to a 35Mbps capped profile on the 23rd, then to a 32.4Mbps profile on the 24th, went back to 35Mbps profile on the 26th and then back to 32.4Mbps on the 27th and it appears to have been on that profile since. 

 

So the line history shows that your sync speed hasn't been above 35Mbps since the 23rd June which is 3 or 4 days before you received the wifi hub, (throughput speeds are always lower than sync speed)

 

Anyway please let us know how you get on with the new router

 

Chris

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Anonymous
Not applicable
Message 68 of 94

@Chris-TalkTalk wrote:

Hi  iefbr14,

 

Out of interest when did you actually receive the wifi hub?

Chris



Around the middle of last week.

 

If you have access to the speed test history in "My Account" you should be able to identify the day I first installed it. The day my performance took the nose dive.

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Message 69 of 94

Hi  iefbr14,

 

Out of interest when did you actually receive the wifi hub?

Chris

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Anonymous
Not applicable
Message 70 of 94

@lancia wrote:

I've notice several values reported as zero as well, will be interesting to see if replacement hub fixes your issues.


Fingers crossed. I'll post the results in the thread as soon as I can.

 

I have already moved my current router to the test socket - made no difference. I then did the 30 minute power down - made no difference.

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lancia
Super Duper Contributor
Message 71 of 94

I've notice several values reported as zero as well, will be interesting to see if replacement hub fixes your issues.

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Anonymous
Not applicable
Message 72 of 94

OK.

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Message 73 of 94

Hi iefbr14

 

I've checked the connection stats and there are some re connections showing on the line, this doesn't appear to be related to any DLM profile changes.

 

Please can you connect the new WiFi Hub at the test socket once you receive it and we can check the connection stats again.

 

Thanks

 

Debbie

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Anonymous
Not applicable
Message 74 of 94

@Debbie-TalkTalk- ok thanks.

 

I have just noticed that my router appears to have reset about 3 hours ago (around 06:45), I can't see anything significantly different in the stats. (although several of the values are consistantly reported as zero with this gui).

 

Does this reset show in whatever line stats you have access to ?

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Message 75 of 94

Hi iefbr14

 

I'm really sorry for all the confusion. I will now look into this fault.

 

I have ordered a replacement WiFi Hub and a returns bag, please can you let us know if the speed still drops when this router is connected.

 

Thanks

 

Debbie

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Anonymous
Not applicable
Message 76 of 94

@Debbie-TalkTalk

 

Debbie, please can you clarify who is managing this thread for TT ?

 

I had an exchange with @Ady-TalkTalk this morning where I suggested that a new wifi hub be sent for testing. This was apparently rejected and an offer of my £30 being refund was made, which I accepted.

 

Following this @Chris-TalkTalk seemed to be asking for more performance information.

 

Now you are asking if I want to try a new router - all just confusing me.

 

I am willing to test a new wifi hub as that was my original suggestion, you may need to check if @Ady-TalkTalk has already processed the refund.

 

If possible, a check that the new hub is from a different batch to my current hub may eliminate one possibility (given TT say the wifi issues were batch related).

 

But please - one TT OCE owning my problem would simplify things from my point of view (and save duplication of effort at your side).

 

Ief

 

EDIT - If the refund has already been processed can we please stick with that solution. A £30 refund but no new router.

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Message 77 of 94

Hi iefbr14

 

Apologies I missed that. I can send a replacement WiFi Hub to check if it's an issue with the router. Would you like me to arrange this?

 

Thanks

 

Debbie

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Anonymous
Not applicable
Message 78 of 94

@Debbie-TalkTalk

 

I did that earlier today at @Ady-TalkTalk's request.

 

The results were posted higher up in this thread.

 

Cheers.

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Message 79 of 94

Hi iefbr14

 

Do you have an alternative router that you could connect to the line to check the sync speed?

 

Thanks

 

Debbie

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Anonymous
Not applicable
Message 80 of 94

@lancia

 

Cheers, nice to know I am not alone.

 

I think it is reasonable to expect teething problems with new devices (or hardware-firmware combinations). Look at all the wifi issues that have already been reported with this device.

 

If wifi problems, is it not also possible that some devices could have performance issues.

 

Ief

 

 

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