Adding a new 3rd party Router behind the Sagemcom 5464

[Billx]

To @KeithFrench 

Previously in another thread, Keith, you responded:

on ‎10-05-2024 10:05 PM

Hi @Billx 

I don't want to dwell on this, as it is not your thread. However, a daisy chain network - that is not a term used in 802.11, one router is an extender from the other. As to your other question, this all depends on how you connect your 3rd party router & the way that you configure it. To use the same subnet as the Sagemcom, you would need to put the other router into bridge mode (it is then just an AP, no routing at all), give it an IP address on the 192.168.1.0 network and connect the Sagemcom to one of its LAN networks. You will also need to disable one of the DHCP servers. Clients connected to either router have full connectivity between them

Connecting the Sagemcom to the WAN port of the other router means that you should not enable bridge mode at all but that the 3rd party one must be on a different network (e.g. 192.168.2.0). This time clients connected to the 3rd party router can connect to the ones on the Sagemcom, but you may need port forwarding to configured for the Sagemcom clients to access servers on the 3rd party one.

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And then I responded:

‎11-05-2024 02:36 PM

Thanks very much, @KeithFrench 

I am currently looking only at the option of using the same subnet.  I have also read a bit more about this at another website.

I would intend to disable the wireless portion of  the Sagemcom. Going via this route, would the remaining ethernet ports on the Sagemcom AND the new 3rd party router be available as normal?

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(EDIT 3:25 PM : You also mention that ' you would need to put the other router into bridge mode'

I assume you mean the 3rd party router. I understand that some routers only have one mode e.g. the Sagemcom itself. You can't select a mode in Sagemcom, only configure it in other ways.)

Thanks

Bill

[Debbie-TalkTalk]

Hi Bill

Keith was trying to help. Keith often helps a lot of customers with wireless issues and has a great knowledge of networking and wireless issues.

I will close this thread now.

[Billx]

EDIT: Possible defamatory content removed.

[Billx]

No. It's months away yet, @Debbie-TalkTalk 

[Debbie-TalkTalk]

Hi Bill

I can see that Keith has posted numerous times to offer advice.

Have you got a 3rd party router now? We can try and help and offer you advice when you have this router for any set up issues as much as we can.

[Billx]

EDIT: Possible offensive remarks removed

[KeithFrench]

Hi @Billx 

You are the only person that I have seen complaining about the 5464's security, like @Debbie-TalkTalk I too use this router all the time without issue. When each new firmware is introduced, it has already had its security assessed by some independent company. I have already told you what to do with WPS etc. I think that you could be wasting a lot of money with a 3rd party router, but that is your choice.

I will answer your question about the setup of this theoretical 3rd party router in a moment, but I will not let you draw me into a big discussion as I had with bridge mode. You didn't read my posts correctly on that, when I repeatedly explained this function, which necessitated everything I mentioned about switching & routing, including layers 2 & 3 of the OSI 7 layer model, to try & get you to understand bridge mode. You even said in your last post that you didn't pay full attention to what I had said. So why should I even bother trying to help you at all?

Here goes then, my one & only reply on this:-

Allocate the 3rd party router to use a different IP address on a different subnet (IP network) to the Hub 2, then connect an Ethernet port of the 5464 to an Ethernet WAN port of whatever router you purchase.

I will ignore any other attempts to get me to explain anything more, until such time as you actually have bought this 3rd party router & created another thread for it, but do that only if you have a problem with it.

[Billx]

Hello, @KeithFrench 

I think we got side-tracked right from the beginning of this discussion.

Right at the beginning you said:

'To use the same subnet as the Sagemcom, you would need to put the other router into bridge mode (it is then just an AP, no routing at all)'

I didn't understand why you had said that, and I didn't pay full attention to what you had said.

Because you had said that it would turn the 3rd party router into an AP, I SHOULD have responded that I did NOT want to turn the 3rd party router into an AP, even if I had to sacrifice using a single subnet.

Does this change your advice,  regarding 1 subnet or 2 subnets, being required?

Bill

[Billx]

Thanks very much @Gondola 

That's a lot of transactions, connecting to every home router in the UK every 24 hours, and usually not updating anything, as there usually won't be any security updates.

Bill

[Gondola]

My post was in reply to your hijacker suggesting that everyone should abandon the TalkTalk supplied gateway router / hub and treat Cyber crime and its victims as a joke.  It's clearly no laughing matter as far as cyber crime victims are concerned.

Security updates to Customer Premises Equipment (CPE), such as gateway wi-fi routers / wi-fi hubs, are delivered via the TR-029 protocol. TR-029 uses a secure connection that is encrypted and authenticated. The update is automatically requested at 24 or 48 hour intervals by the CPE device that contacts the TalkTalk Auto Configuration Server (ACS). When authenticated, the ACS delivers the security update to the CPE. Newly supplied devices will contact the ACS server on first use to ensure the current release of software is automatically applied.

[bigkenny]

That great news 😞

what a joke, more rules and regs`

[Billx]

@Gondola 

Does the new law also require the supplied routers to be secure before they are delivered to their customers, or only after? Also how often might the new law allow the ISPs to install their new security updates? Surely they should not be allowed to update any which time. Is there a complete ban on customer supplied equipment?

Bill

[Gondola]

The Product Security and Telecommunications Infrastructure Act (PSTI) that came into force on 29 April 2024 requires inter alia that TalkTalk provide security updates via TR-029 to its supplied routers for a minimum period of time. I believe that TalkTalk allowing the use of third party routers as the Internet gateway router will have to cease as will any ability to switch off TR-029. I'm thinking that TalkTalk will require an authentication of the TalkTalk supplied router for compliance with the PSTI and the Telecoms Security Act to apply at the end of March 2025. 

TalkTalk will notify customers on the implications of the cyber security requirements imposed by the Government Acts but the above is my take on what will be required.

[bigkenny]

Im using my own routers/modem, I have a 3 router setup all connected via CAT5e and CAT6 cables. My main Gateway router/modem is a non TalkTalk unit and its connected to two more routers (also non TT) via cable. 

Been using this setup for a while with no problems. The 2 routers are setup in AP mode. Wifi signal is great all round the house with benfit of having extra ethernet cable connections near by as well. I`d advise anyone to do the same for less hassle give up on the TT routers and get your own with extra features and total control.  

[Billx]

The following is a  message from @domino138  to @KeithFrench on ‎06-11-2022 12:41 PM within a thread originated by @domino138 

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Hi @KeithFrench

Thanks for the offer of help. I've now done the following:

Configured the LAN side of the TalkTalk router with 192.168.254.1/24
Changed the DCHP scope on the TalkTalk router to 192.168.254.100-200
Configured the DMZ option on the TalkTalk router and pointed it to 192.168.254.10
Lowered the firewall setting on the TalkTalk router to "Low" (I'd like to let my own router do the lion's share of the firewalling)
Configured the WAN side of my router with a static IP of 192.168.254.10/24
Configured the LAN side of my router with 192.168.1.1/24 plus the usual DHCP settings

Did I miss any config on the TalkTalk router? Appreciate any additional advice.

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@KeithFrench didn't offer a response to this, and that was the end of that thread.

I think @domino138 's own solution sounds excellent, comparable to @KeithFrench 's excellent solution above, even though this solution requires the use of 2 subnets instead of 1.

 So, the question for me now, is to decide which of the 2 answers is better?

Bill

[Billx]

@Debbie-TalkTalk 

The router that I should use, must NOT fool around with the 'WIFI optimisation' issue.

And preferably my internet service provider should not have management access to the router.

One doesn't notice these things on a daily basis, but they exist.

EDIT at Monday, 2:00 PM : 'If you want to make lots of changes to the router configuration'. Not necessarily lots, perhaps 2, 3 changes might be sufficient. They are not currently possible. 'it may be best using a 3rd party router', Well yes, that's what I am trying to do, but I need to investigate, before going ahead with that.

Bill

[Debbie-TalkTalk]

Hi Bill

I use a TT router at home and I'm not having any issues. I think it depends on what you need/use your router for.

If you want to make lots of changes to the router configuration etc then it may be best using a 3rd party router.

[Billx]

@Debbie-TalkTalk 

Well, you do know that TalkTalk's offered routers are not top notch, don't you? That is why. Do you want to know more?

EDIT 12:45 PM : You do remember the 'disabling Optimisation issue', don't you?

You do know that TalkTalk routers do not come with an operation manual, don't you?

Bill

[Debbie-TalkTalk]

Hi Bill

I'm just wondering why you want to use a different router (non TT router) Is your current router not performing as expected?

[Billx]

No, No @Debbie-TalkTalk there are no connection problems.

If you want to contribute to a long discussion on routers, then go ahead.

Bill

[Billx]

Yes @KeithFrench I did have a problem, because I might be adding another router to my system. There is no point in getting a router and not knowing what to do with it. And I thought you was kind enough to try and give me some help. As far as you trying to teach me about 'layer two and layer three', I never asked for that, you tried to do it yourself. The same goes for 'bridge mode'. I never asked for that. Why didn't I ask for it. Because those things are not needed, when configuring a router. As far as 'bridge mode' is concerned, you said yourself that it destroys the routers routing ability. So it would be stupid of me to even think of using it, let alone learning more about it.

By the way, have you noticed that routers now do not have a modem in them?

Bill