Emails to me are bouncing back: message 'Too many invalid recipients' (TT405)

[Bray2]

This has been happening infrequently for some weeks, but in last few days it is happening a lot. 

No obvious pattern - the same person can send 3 emails that get through, then 1 bounces back

People can forward same email later and it gets through

Sometimes other addressees are copied in when a message bounces, sometimes message is just to me

Big problem for me as I have work deadlines and don't know if I am receiving emails 

Please help

Tiscali email address

[Gondola]

You have multiple email accounts according to your previous statements. With free email accounts readily available nobody has reason just to rely on a single Gmail email address.

This conversation is now closed.

[gmlack]

---

@Gondola wrote:

Incorrect.

The bounce message you're referring to TT406 says clearly use an alternative email address. So the originator does know exactly what to do.

---

Not if I don't have an alternate email address.

[Gondola]

Incorrect.

The bounce message you're referring to TT406 says clearly use an alternative email address. So the originator does know exactly what to do.

[gmlack]

---

@Gondola wrote:

Multiple TalkTalk Mail users made strong complaints on this forum about the waves of spam flowing from Google servers.

---

Whereas now multiple TalkTalk users are complaining that valid email sent to them is being bounced, giving the original sender no way to contact the TalkTalk user.

[Gondola]

Multiple TalkTalk Mail users made strong complaints on this forum about the waves of spam flowing from Google servers.

TalkTalk was previously accepting all authenticated mail from Google.

TalkTalk responded to the complaints by adding filters to block the spam. When the flood of spam threatens the service then clearly TalkTalk has to block the offending servers.

Your opinion of opening the flood gates to spam and the consequences of denial of service for TalkTalk Mail would only raise more complaints.

[gmlack]

---

@Gondola wrote:

I repeat this topic and TT405 is about Gmail attempting sending to a lot of non existent TalkTalk addresses.

---

And I'll repeat that TT405 and TT406 are different codes for the same effective results for TalkTalk users - TalkTalk users are not receiving legitimate mail.

---

It's abundantly clear from the SORBS NEW report that Gmail is also sending large quantities of spam and the TT406 means towards TalkTalk active addresses.

---

And it's abundantly clear to me that TalkTalk's active addresses are not receiving the valid email that they should because TalkTalk is rejecting it.

---

I don't want my mail affected by denial of service caused by the volume of Gmail spam and having to sieve for spam. So I support TalkTalk putting a hard block on Gmail when necessary.

---

All of these emails are arriving at TalkTalk and being processed by it anyway (they must be - a TT405/6 response is being sent). I'm happy to sieve out SPAM (my email client does it anyway) if it means I actually receive the legitimate mail sent to me rather thna have TalkTalk bounce it back to the sender.

---

You can choose to ignore that it's Google responsibility to stop sending spam.  Legitimate Gmail users that cannot use the service when there's excessive spam should complain direct to Google.

---

So how often does TalkTalk complain to Google about its set-up? This might have more effect than a comment from an individual.

But it might well not, as other ISPs seem to accept mail from Google without bouncing.

And all of this ignores the fact that it is all based on TalkTalk recognizing SPAM. And if it is doing that then it should just reject the SPAM messages. Or is TalkTalk assuming that email sent to no-longer valid addresses is SPAM?  Which it might well not be.

[Gondola]

I repeat this topic and TT405 is about Gmail attempting sending to a lot of non existent TalkTalk addresses.

It's abundantly clear from the SORBS NEW report that Gmail is also sending large quantities of spam and the TT406 means towards TalkTalk active addresses.

I don't want my mail affected by denial of service caused by the volume of Gmail spam and having to sieve for spam. So I support TalkTalk putting a hard block on Gmail when necessary.

You can choose to ignore that it's Google responsibility to stop sending spam.  Legitimate Gmail users that cannot use the service when there's excessive spam should complain direct to Google.

[gmlack]

---

@Gondola wrote:

Hey @gmlack 

This topic is about TT405 bouncebacks ...

You're now here about a TT406 bounce

It's still a bounce which comes about because TalkTalk has "identified a number of outgoing emails from your email provider as spam".

But the mail that was bounced back is not SPAM - yet TalkTalk still pounced it. So my friend sends an email to 3 addressees and the TalkTalk one is bounced because some unrelated third party is sending SPAM.

---

TalkTalk policy decision on control of incoming spam.  The originator is under no illusion that to get their mail sent to TalkTalk they could wait for Google to do something or use a non-Google email service. It's up to the sending mail service, Gmail, to improve its sender reputation by putting a stop to spam at source.

---

The originator has no control over Google. TalkTalk knows this message is not SPAM, but has bounced it.

[Gondola]

Hi Robin

Just carried out a single test from Gmail to TalkTalk and the email sent from Google server IP address 209.85.216.50 was received promptly.

This despite the IP address being listed by SORBS SPAM and SORBS NEW that shows spam is currently being sent by that Google server IP address. SORBS NEW reports 877 detected instances of spam from 17 January 2024. And that's just the tip of the spamberg because it's only a count of the spam reported to or detected by SORBS spam traps.

[Gondola]

Hey @gmlack 

This topic is about TT405 bouncebacks that showed that Gmail spammers were sending mail to non-existent TalkTalk email addresses as well as to active TalkTalk email addresses. Clear evidence that the spammers are using out of date lists of email addresses including addresses that former users have wisely deleted to deny spammers a target.

You're now here about a TT406 bounce that demonstrates TalkTalk takes a hard stance on spam sent to its network. To trigger a TT406 the amount of spam must be significant. The message to the originator is very clear. "Sorry, we’ve identified a number of outgoing emails from your email provider as spam so we haven’t been able to send your email to its intended recipient. Please try again later or using an alternative email address."

TalkTalk policy decision on control of incoming spam.  The originator is under no illusion that to get their mail sent to TalkTalk they could wait for Google to do something or use a non-Google email service. It's up to the sending mail service, Gmail, to improve its sender reputation by putting a stop to spam at source.

[gmlack]

---

@Gondola wrote:

Hey @gmlack 

As I've said in my reply to Robin "This should mean that genuine gmail users can now get mail through". I've tested that myself and my gmail is getting through instantly to TalkTalk Mail. No bounces.

---

But it isn't.

I've just had a mail from a friend bounced back Google by TalkTalk with this:

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <mailer-daemon@googlemail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2024 at 12:24
Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)
To: Friend-email@example.com

Message not delivered There was a problem delivering your message to my-email-address@dsl.pipex.com. See the technical details below.

The response from the remote server was: 550 5.1.0 QRRprRb5yDNnk Sorry, we’ve identified a number of outgoing emails from your email provider as spam so we haven’t been able to send your email to its intended recipient. Please try again later or using an alternative email address. For more information visit our help article (link: help2.talktalk.co.uk/i-cant-send-or-receive-emails) (TT406)

So, TalkTalk is still bouncing mail that is NOT SPAM, because someone else has been sending SPAM.

So, I'll say it again, if TalkTalk is detecting SPAM it should reject the SPAM email - not all other emails from that server.

This is not an isolated bounce either. Other friends still report then same. They are all on Google mail.

[Gondola]

Hey @gmlack 

As I've said in my reply to Robin "This should mean that genuine gmail users can now get mail through". I've tested that myself and my gmail is getting through instantly to TalkTalk Mail. No bounces.

[gmlack]

I understand that I am missing emails because TalkTalk is rejecting perfectly valid ones to me.  Just like the OP.

And this is apparently because of some totally unrelated emails that are nothing to to with either me or my friend who is trying to email me.

So why should I start another topic when the topic is the same?

[Gondola]

Hey @gmlack 

You don't understand do you?

If you have an issue with understanding then start your own topic.

[gmlack]

TalkTalk are now effectively filtering the spam at a network level so that it doesn't reach any TalkTalk addresses. This should mean that genuine gmail users can now get mail through as the incidents of wrong addressing by Gmail servers will be lessened and therefore fewer TT405 bouncebacks will result.

If TalkTalk is detecting spam from a server then it should reject the spam (if it is detecting spam it must know which message is spam). It should not be rejecting all messages from that server, as this is just penalizing TalkTalk customers*. There needs to be a re-think on this - quickly.

* If someone sends me a message they no longer have any interest in it (they've already sent it). The only person with an interest in that message is me - a TalkTalk customer. (The sender will have an interest in any reply I make, but that's a different message).

[Gondola]

Hi Robin

Thanks for confirming.  The TT405 bouncebacks are because the spam being sent by Gmail servers is being sent to deleted email addresses. i.e. the spammers are using out of date tiscali.co.uk addresses that some sensible users have deleted after the addresses were involved in data breaches the biggest of which was onliner spambot in 2017.

TalkTalk are now effectively filtering the spam at a network level so that it doesn't reach any TalkTalk addresses.  This should mean that genuine gmail users can now get mail through as the incidents of wrong addressing by Gmail servers will be lessened and therefore fewer TT405 bouncebacks will result.

Let us know what happens over the next few days.

[RobinDodridge]

Hi Gondola,

One is a personal domain but after checking, it appears to be hosted by Google and the other one is also a Googlemail.com account so for me it appears to be Google related so far… 

Thanks

Robin 

[Bray2]

Hi Ady and@Michelle-TalkTalk do you have any updates on this issue? It's clearly affecting a lot of people.

[PIGFARMER1]

This has been happening to me for 2 or 3 weeks and would like to get it sorted. They appear o be coming from

people who have our email address stored in their email programmes.

[Gondola]

That looks more like BT Internet's Vade Secure had marked the reply mail message as Suspect and chose not to send it to protect the outgoing BT Internet servers.

Thanks for the confirmation as it does help to define spam in Gmail outgoing mail as the problem.