Unable to access emails via Outlook - encryption issues?

[scream666]

So here we go again.

As if the earlier (circa May 2023?) loss of email service associated with POP3/IMAP changes made by TalkTalk on their servers wasn’t stressful enough, here we go again. TalkTalk makes yet more unannounced changes and we all end up having to struggle away to work out what they’ve done, when, and how we can possibly reinstate things.

At some point this week, my email access via Outlook has stopped working. Here’s the message:-

‘Your server does not support the connection encryption type you have specified. Try changing the encryption method. Error 0x800CCC1A’.

Now bear in mind I haven’t made any changes to my setup, so the problem has been caused by unannounced changes made by TalkTalk without any due regard to its customers.

I tried contacting TalkTalk on 0345 172 0088 and was simply told, to (a) either use the webmail service (which isn’t an answer for me) or (b) get a new PC with Windows 10+ running as the operating system. Not exactly helpful!

I tried to ascertain what changes had been made and when by TalkTalk and I was told that he didn’t know. I asked to be put through to someone who did in the hope I could talk at a technical level to an informed person, but guess what, the phone line went dead after a long period of silence, followed by crackling. I remember that that happened last time I tried to make contact, so that’s obviously a regular thing too. A brief attempt to then contact me via my mobile was made (I was using my landline initially), but that was only 1 ring. I guess that qualifies as, ‘we attempted to call you’ doesn’t it? Yeah, right.

There are several published settings out there on the net. Possibly the most relevant are:-

https://community.talktalk.co.uk/t5/Articles/Setting-up-Email-in-Windows-mail/ta-p/2894287

and for users that don’t have the luxury to be able to select STARTTLS (older versions of Outlook), this was published to specifically cater for those users (which took some finding actually!):-

https://community.talktalk.co.uk/t5/Articles/Setting-up-Email-in-Windows-mail/ta-p/2894287

which seems to suggest that TalkTalk want people to use IMAP and POP3/SMTP. This isn’t always appropriate for people as some folk like to have contiguous PST files that they can back up etc. If you want PST, then you don’t go down the IMAP route.

So my set up was (still is) like this:-

Server Port Numbers:

Incoming Server (POP3): 995

This Server requires an encrypted connection (SSL) - ticked

Outgoing Server (SMTP): 587

Use the following type of encrypted connection: TLS

Incoming mail server: mail.talktalk.net

Outgoing mail server (SMTP): smtp.talktalk.net

My outgoing server (SMTP) requires authentication – use same settings as my incoming mail server – ticked

.. and this has been working fine following the last fiasco and mad scramble to get things working after TalkTalk did whatever they did last time. As far as I know, these documents have not been rescinded.

So please, would someone tell me what’s going on in TalkTalk land? Why does nobody talk to customers? It is just not good enough really is it! There’s no point in having a 24 month contract if at some point down the line you can’t access your emails in the manner that you need, using the PC and software that you have. When you sign up, you expect a minimum level of mutual trust between parties don’t you. Where is the customer care (either pre-change or post)?

So, do I have to change encryption type again, reconfigure for IMAP (with all the pain that that will bring), load up later versions of SSL or TLS, (bearing in mind that I am using an older Outlook) or what? What versions (as a minimum) are needed? Does anyone know?

Please be aware that this is my only method of accessing my emails, so it becomes a very serious matter after only a few days.

Please can someone help?

A rather disgruntled customer.

[scream666]

Thank you for your additional thoughts.

Sorry that I am a bit slow with this as I still don't understand why it just stopped working when it was working prior to 20th June. My settings (and Outlook version) must have been compatible at that time. If TLSv1.2 hasn't changed at TalkTalk's end, and it hasn't changed my end why did it all stop working post 20th? It suggests that it;s something to do with the certificate you mentioned. If this is so, then why can't that be investigated and corrected as necessary?

I'm sorry to say that learning new products is going to be pretty much a show stopper for me. Even if I had the capability now, I'd still be worried about how to back emails up and keep a copy locally and I wouldn't know how to append any new emails from either webmail or Thunderbird to my common existing PST for instance.

It's not just about cost of course. If people have to run older platforms to undertake other work (it's not all about emails), then investing in new PC(s) and software isn;t always a good move as it breaks other things.

[Gondola]

You can save emails from TalkTalk Mail webmail. Single emails save as eml files and multiple emails as eml files in a zip container. Webmail currently has a 10GB mailbox size. The size of the upgraded mail platform hasn't been declared yet but publicly available information from Open-Xchange suggests a mailbox is nominally limited to 200,000 emails.

If cost is a worry then use Thunderbird as that email software is free to use (voluntary donations to Mozilla may be made). The software does incorporate its own TLS 1.2 ciphers and therefore is not dependent on the Operating System and is, in relation to email security, supported by the TalkTalk Mail platform. Thunderbird has Local folders that can be used to save emails.

[scream666]

Thank you for your info.

I have to say that this is a huge worry to me and it's making me rather poorly, so sorry if I'm getting a bit heated.

You stated this ..

'Your email software was logged off the system on 20 June and therefore had to check for a new security certificate. It's a recommendation that only SHA2 security certificates are permitted and the only cipher suite now being presented is for TLS 1.2 so your software does not connect securely to the TalkTalk Mail servers.'

I can confirm that my version of Outlook supports TLS 1.2. Also it was working following the changes that TalkTalk made last year (and I followed suit with the 'older versions' settings).

It stopped working probably around the 20 June, but I can't be totally sure of the precise day because I happened not to use Outlook every day that week, but it certainly was that week when it all went wrong.

So is this now down to a certificate problem (and not encryption at all)? I note that this has happened before and there are useful threads out there that you have been previously involved in.

As regards webmail, it's just not a solution for me. How do I keep local copies of my mail to keep the account below its limit and to preserve my emails in a format I can handle in contiguous manner (e.g. PST)?

I note that Thunderbird has a limit of 40Gb - I'm not sure whether that the 'local profile' as they refer to it or that held on the mail server.

If a new Outlook version is genuinely needed (and given the above regarding TLSv1.2 support, I don't see why), then which version will co-exist with TalkTalk's current setup and will TalkTalk change things again if I invest? This could be very expensive and it's not at all welcome.

[Ady-TalkTalk]

Gondola is right again.

Ady

[Gondola]

TalkTalk don't tell me what's happening with TalkTalk maintenance outages. So, I can tell you what I know which is that you're using deprecated software that neither Microsoft or TalkTalk support.

For some considerable time TalkTalk have been urging customers to use secure mail connections either via webmail or IMAP/POP3 connections and over the last 18 months notifying customers to either use secure mail or be limited to webmail only access to mailboxes.

The security certificate for TalkTalk Mail was last renewed on 14 May 2023 and at the same time the deprecated SHA1 security certificates were withdrawn.

Your email software was logged off the system on 20 June and therefore had to check for a new security certificate. It's a recommendation that only SHA2 security certificates are permitted and the only cipher suite now being presented is for TLS 1.2 so your software does not connect securely to the TalkTalk Mail servers.

You may choose to connect insecurely but if you do then TalkTalk will withdraw IMAP/POP3 access to your mailbox and limit access to webmail only.

So, you have my advice on what to do but ultimately the choice is yours.

[scream666]

Thank you for your comments. It still doesn't answer the question as to why my setup was working perfectly up until the start of last week. I've made no changes and I've had no updates etc. The logical, and not unreasonable answer is that TalkTalk has made some changes on their servers (without telling folk).

[Ady-TalkTalk]

Gondola's right.

Ady

[Gondola]

If you simply tried Thunderbird you'd prove that a fully supported product will work on Windows 7 even though Windows 7 is no longer supported by Microsoft.

I use TalkTalk Mail webmail to manage multiple email accounts (TalkTalk mailboxes and non-TalkTalk mailboxes) on a single sign in.  The Open-Xchange OX email platform is as good as and in my opinion more reliable than any deprecated Outlook product.  There are features of OX Mail that ought to have been included by TalkTalk so in that regard the product could have been better.

I've already pointed you to the section for older versions of Outlook 2016 / 2019 and 365... and corrected the error for you in this thread to make sure there's no confusion about using the STARTTLS command for outgoing mail.

SSL is totally deprecated. You'll find no reliable email service using any SSL ciphers even if the description still persists in the email software user interface as a legacy hangover.

[scream666]

Windows version is 7 Home Premium v6.1

[scream666]

You've stated that TLS v1.2 is required as a minimum, but what about the SSL version requirement please?

[scream666]

So which document(s), and where within the document(s) is in error please ...

https://community.talktalk.co.uk/t5/Articles/Setting-up-Email-in-Windows-mail/ta-p/2894287

or for older versions of Outlook ...

https://community.talktalk.co.uk/t5/Articles/Setting-up-Email-in-Windows-mail/ta-p/2894287

Let's at least try to get that cleared up. Users might then stand half a chance and complaints might reduce?

Thank you.

[scream666]

Thank you for your reply.

My Outlook does support TLS 1.2 encryption.

The TalkTalk webmail is dreadful. There's no way I can use that to look after multiple email accounts. For me it has so many disadvantages that it wouldn't be practical to list them all here. For me, it was a waste of TalkTalk development time.

If the documents are wrong (and I'm still non the wiser as to where they are all wrong, or indeed which documents), but perhaps TalkTalk should properly revue them with some urgency now and re-issued as required. Misinformation is one of the significant sources or customer upset.

I'm not going to upgrade anything any time soon. There are those people who'd like to have the very latest of everything, regardless, and those who have a responsibility to look after legacy systems and software that won't run on the likes of Windows 10 or a 64 bit platform. 

I don't buy the proposed solution. It should not be up to me or any other customers to be forced into 'upgrading' or having two machines - one for legacy and another just to get emails following an uncontrolled, ill considered change by TalkTalk. It's not good enough.

[Gondola]

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scream666 wrote:

My older version of Outlook does support TLS v1.2

My diagnosis is that your older version of Outlook is a deprecated unsupported product and will not have the required cipher suite to support TLS 1.2 encryption.

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scream666 wrote:
No idea what Thunderbird is (unless it's 1960 puppet programmes).

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Thunderbird is a currently supported email program using a classic style of presentation like Outlook. Thunderbird contains its own ciphers for TLS 1.2 so is not reliant on those provided via the Operating System

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scream666 wrote:

No I can;t use TalkTalk webmail (as stated), so that's not a solution.

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I believe you can use TalkTalk Mail webmail. You may not wish to but there's no reason why an up to date supported browser including accessibility enhancements if needed cannot access the TalkTalk Mail mailbox.  Some mailbox settings are only available via a desktop browser.

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scream666 wrote:

why is TalkTalk releasing official information that's wrong?

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The settings quoted for Outlook 2016 / 2019 / 365 outgoing mail security are wrong. Why? No expert proof reading prior to publishing?

Is there anything else you wish to clarify before upgrading your OS / Email collection products?

[scream666]

I can't see where that document states anything different from what you've just typed. So the document is right then i.e. port 587 and the STARTTLS for Windows 10? Not that I'm interested in Windows 10 of course.

[scream666]

My older version of Outlook does support TLS v1.2, No idea what Thunderbird is (unless it's 1960 puppet programmes). No I can;t use TalkTalk webmail (as stated), so that's not a solution. As regards your second paragraph, why is TalkTalk releasing official information that's wrong?

[Gondola]

Your current email product is deprecated and not supported by TalkTalk Mail. You require Outlook 2016 or newer to have a supported Microsoft product that uses the required TLS 1.2 encryption. Or use TalkTalk Mail webmail.

Or software that's supported on your computer operating system and that provides TLS 1.2 encryption. e.g. Thunderbird is still supported on Windows 7 and newer.

Email settings for supported products Outlook 2016 or later as shown by TalkTalk are not correct. The outgoing encryption is via port 587 and the STARTTLS command plus outgoing authentication by sending Username and password.