City Fibre - Full Fibre Upgrade

[GORDON92]

Hello,

This is a follow up question to my last (and only other post which was dated 17-10-2023) - If you can help me with this issue, please read my previous post to understand the background. In my previous post talktalk was going to upgrade my service to from my current package of Fibre65 to Full Fibre, however because I also have a landline with two analogue telephones connected to it (one at the master socket in my living room and a second at an internally wired copper extension outlet in my bedroom) talktalk cancelled this upgrade the night before the installation upgrade was due to take place - that was in the past but all still relavent to my current issue.

In December talktalk emailed me again saying this upgrade could again go ahead, and I set the upgrade date for the 4th of March. Today I received a telephone call from a person in talktalk named Albert - he said he need to confirm my upgrade date and confrim that I would be home to allow the engineers access and that I was happy to proceed with the upgrade. I explained to Albert about the last attempt to carry out this upgrade and the fact that I had two analogue telephones connected to my landline, which I wished to continue using after the upgrade. I also explained about your Grandstream - Digital Voice Adapter & and about speaking to your technical Department on the previous occasion to confirm that it would work with my two analogue telephones. I asked him if city fibre would be providing the new router and digital voice adapter when they carried out this upgrade. When he looked at the order he told me it was for a router only and there was no mention of a digital voice adapter. He said he would have to get talktalk customer services to call me back about this order and our call ended. So I am now waiting on talktalk customer services calling me back to find out whats going on - this is the reason for this post - to ask if there is anyone here who can provide assistance, because I can see this going the same way as when talktalk tried to carry out this same upgrade back in October last year, i.e. it being cancelled at the last minute, and by the phone call I just received from Albert - it does not give me any confidence that it is going correctly at present.

P.S. From reading previous posts on the forum - I'm already dubious if CityFibre (Aberdeen) - offer Digital Voice services to allow me to carry on using my landline analogue telephones.

Thankyou - in the hope someone can actually sort this out.

Regards

Gordon Walker

[GORDON92]

I’ll just have to wait and see if at some point in the future talktalk ever decide they will offer that free update to full fibre WITH digital voice, I’m not overly concerned about it as I was happy with the service of my original contract but it would have been nice to get, but as I have just re-contracted for another 2years, I don’t suspect talktalk will be in any hurry to provide a free upgrade on a newly re-contracted contract.

anyway please feel free to close this thread now, I might raise another in the future if talktalk do try to upgrade me and I have similar issues to the points I raised in this thread.

Regards

Gordon

[Michelle-TalkTalk]

Morning Gordon,

Thanks for keeping us updated.

Michelle

[GORDON92]

Hi Chris,

Just to let you know, I’ve just re-contracted with Talktalk for another 24months on the same Broadband and phone line package as I was previously on, but without the additional “UK unlimited calls” boost option as it was too expensive this time.

Regards

Gordon

[Chris-TalkTalk]

OK, thanks Gordon

Chris

[GORDON92]

Hi Chris,

I'll come back on Tuesday and confirm whether Talktalk have been able to renew my contract with the same or similar setup to what I currently have.

Regards

Gordon

[Chris-TalkTalk]

I'm really sorry, we can't arrange the upgrade.

I can't really see why they would say it isn't available as there was initially an order for FullFibre with VoIP that seemed to be going through OK. All I would say is that if you ask them if the extension sockets will still work with VoIP then this may confuse matters as they will probably say no and may again place an order for copper leave behind

So if you'd like to go ahead on the basis that as far as we are concerned the extensions won't work with VoIP and you don't have a care alarm, medical device or any other device that requires a working landline then I just wouldn't mention that you need the current telephone extensions to work. But please bear in mind that when you upgrade if can't get the telephones to work on the extensions sockets, this isn't something that we can help with.

Chris

[GORDON92]

Hi Chris,

Thankyou for your reply, as I mentioned, I would like the full fibre upgrade with digital voice, thus I have two further questions:-

1) Is this something you could arrange for me, because so far I haven’t been to impressed with how talktalk have gone about this in the last two attempts; and,

2) As my contract renewal date is only on the 23rd March, I was planning to call talktalk next Monday the 12th March to see what they could offer me regarding the possibility of renewing my contract, hopefully something similar to my current package (which I am quite happy with), - thus my question here is should I hold off asking you if you can arrange this upgrade until I decide whether or not to renew my contract with talktalk. My concern here is when I call them they tell me “Digital Voice” may not be available to my address, when our past conversations on this topic appear to confirm that it is, this might prevent me from agreeing to renew my contract?

thanks again

Regards

Gordon

[Chris-TalkTalk]

Hi Gordon,

As far as I can see if you sign up to Full Fibre with digital voice then you can have the service, no problem. But if you emphasis that your extension sockets must still work with the digital voice service then we will generally advise you that it won't work or look for an alternative, in this case copper leave behind which gives you the Full Fibre service and allows your extension sockets to continue working.

I appreciate that you may be able to do some rewiring which will allow VoIP to work on your extension sockets but we can't guarantee that it will work or support it in any way, so this isn't something that we would promote.

In short, I don't really think that the person who cancelled your order did the wrong thing based the information provided. They just placed a new order for a service that they thought would best suit your needs, fulfilling your requirements.

I apologies if I've misunderstood any of this, I appreciate that I may have got the wrong end of the stick

Chris

[GORDON92]

Hello Chris - Thanks for the reply,

The first part of your email is correct - that is what has happened, however the second part of your email is incorrect where you say "As it isn't", however yes my order was cancelled, however as I've said previously your bookings department clearly do not understand how the equipment they are providing functions or works. As I also said the talktalk technical department confirmed my analogue setup would work no problem.

Here is the link to the talktalk webpage on the grandstream analogue telephone adapter (ATA) as provided by the talttalk technial department (the booking department all need educated in how it works instead of cancelling orders):-

https://community.talktalk.co.uk/t5/Articles/Digital-Voice-Adapter/ta-p/2815435?kbsupermail=true

I have also attached the OEM's user guide to clarify further, the OEM's website also states:-

---------------------------------------------------------

The HT801 is a one-port analog telephone adapter (ATA) while the HT802 is a 2-port analog telephone adapter (ATA) that allows users to create a high-quality and manageable IP telephony solution for residential and office environments. Its ultra-compact size, voice quality, advanced VoIP functionality, security protection and auto provisioning options enable users to take advantage of VoIP on analog phones and enables service providers to offer high quality IP service. The HT801/HT802 are an ideal ATA for individual use and for large scale commercial IP voice deployments.

--------------------------------------------------------------

and finally as I have also said before the following youtube link explains how to use multiple analogue telephones with a single ATA connection port - which I what I was intending to do with my setup.

"How to Connect Landline Phones / Extensions to VOIP on Fibre Internet" by someone called "My Mate VINCE", a quick Google search should locate this YouTube video and what he is doing in this video is what I am suggesting could be done with the Grandstream HT801 device.

To finish - I would like the "Full fibre upgrade with Digital voice", however the talktalk bookings department are stopping me getting this purely due to their lack of knowledge, Tech department says yes, but booking department says no (thats the real problem) its a pity theres no internal inter-department education days inside talktalk.

I would have liked to stay with talktalk, but when the copper PSTN network is finally shut down - if talktalk haven't got this issue fixed my only alternative is to more to another provider who better understands the services they can provide who will happily provide me with a full fibre and digital voice service. As I have said previously I have been with talktalk for over 27years, this is not a descision I want to take - it is uneducated people at talktalk forcing this action on me.

Chris dont get me wrong - none of these comments are directed at yourself, you have been more than helpful, you seem to know exactly the issues and know what you are doing, unfortunately from a talktalk commercial side of things the righthand (bookings department - decision making arm) doesn't understand what the lefthand(technical team - equipment providing arm) provides - and is making wrong decisions - which is preventing customers like me from getting access to services we require - if this isn't sorted internally - it is a good way to lose customers - and not because they want to leave, but because talktalk are forcing them to leave - way to go talktalk.

Thanks again Chris.

P.S. Chris unfortuantely I don't think this is something you can rectify (I would be happy if you could), So I suspect come my renewals date (23rd March) I will be forced to move.

Regards

Gordon 

[Chris-TalkTalk]

Thanks Gordon,

OK, I've had a look at this and think I know what's happened. When the order was first placed it was for Full Fibre with digital voice. Before the installation you appear to have contacted us to confirm that your current telephone setup was compatible with digital voice. As it isn't, the original order was cancelled and a new order for copper leave behind was placed, so that you could have full fibre and keep your current telephone setup. Hope that makes sense

Chris

[ferguson]

If they have been redacted then no problem, that was the only point of concern. Chris won't be back online until Monday.

[GORDON92]

Hi again Chris,

I have reattached the two files that I uploaded in my previous comment, because Ferguson decided to delete them (because them contained my personal email contact details) before you got a chance to read them. Ferguson if you read this please do not delete these files I need Chris to see them - I have now used an online pdf editor to remove any personal details, so there should be no reason to delete them now.

Thanks

Regards

Gordon

[ferguson]

@GORDON92 

Sorry, but I felt obliged to remove those pdf attachments as they do contain personal details which you assuredly do not want out in the public domain.

Perhaps just copy and paste the relevant text if yyou want to add that for information?

[GORDON92]

Hi Chris,

Sorry for talking so long to reply - my computer has been acting up (driving me nuts) - anyway back on topic - I did not request the upgrade, talktalk offered it, please see attached email of talktalk upgrade offer - note it inculdes "Digital Voice" (again you'll have to delete this once you read it as it contains my email address - unfortunately I dont have a PDF editor to remove specific portions of text and the only way I know to attach a copy of an email is to print it as a PDF and attach it), And yes talktalk knew I had two analgoue telephones connected to my single landline, I called them specifically to clarify this prior to the upgrade, that is when I was transferred to the talktalk technical department to to confirm it would be ok, this is also when the technical department sent me the other email I have attached about how the Digital Voice Adapter works. So the talktalk technical department were happy it would work with no issues. And the installation was supposed to proceed - it was only when the talktalk booking department called me the night before the scheduled installation date - to confirm I would be in to allow the engineer access - they have four or five standard questions to ask, and as soon as I said I had two analogue telephones connected to my landline, that was time for "Computer says no" scenario & they cancelled the installation - I was fuming & raised a complaint - you can see the complaint number in start of my other only post. The talktalk bookings team do not understand how your equipment works & this question they ask is wrong, but because its there - if they beleive you have given a wrong answer the upgrade halts. As I mentioned earlier if I had said I had DECT telephones which have a single point connection at their master base station the upgrade would have been proably been completed. It is really annoying and completely talktalks fault due to lack of knowledge with their personnel.

So talktalks new approach at the second upgrade attempt is to state "Digital Voice" is nolonger available - which is a bit of a fib, but it saves them having to change how they ask that question and having to update their whole companies procedures - so easier just to tell thier customer NO.

Anyway - all the best

Regards

Gordon

[Chris-TalkTalk]

Hi Gordon,

Could I just ask, when you first placed the order for Full Fibre did you say that you had a telephone on extension cables that you wanted to keep?

Chris

[Chris-TalkTalk]

Hi,

I'll see if I get any information about this and get back to you

Chris

[ferguson]

I am following this thread with interest, because there is no doubt that the fragmented nature of services being offered across different network suppliers is causing great confusion for customers. Could it be that different ISPs have different arrangements with networks across the services they will provide? And pay for by the way. I have a Full Fibre service via Openreach with VoIP included from TalkTalk at no added cost, save for calls. I have checked out Zen and Vodafone and both require additional monthly payments for a VoIP line before any calls are made. 

[GORDON92]

Hi again aa2000,

I understand & appreciate your question - it'll be interesting to see if they give you an answer - you realise your putting them in a corner😁. 

As I said their first attempt at an upgrade, they were going to provide "Digital Voice" services, via the Grandstream (ATA - analogue telephone adapter), but my two analogue telephone issue - Stumbled at their automated computer says no questions on whether to proceed with the upgrade. They obviously haven't bothered rectifying this issue, instead try and take a different approach of offering to split my service - keep telephone on copper and update broadband to fibre (but I dont want two different services at my property - hence my request of Chris just to cancel the upgrade).

Now with their new approach they have to make the statement that City Fibre in Aberdeen don't provide "Digital Voice" services, (doesn't matter if this statement was true or false), because IF City Fibre in Aberdeen do provide "Digital Voice" service that talktalk can provide - it then rolls them back to the same problem why they cancelled it it the first place - their question about having two analogue telephones on the single port Grandstream (ATA) - (which does work and is fine) - unfortunately talktalks automated question system says it is not fine - so the again hit a brick wall and cannot proceed - it is far easier for them to simply state "We can't offer digital voice service at the moment" - whether this is a true or false statement is irrelavent - it gets them out of a problem with minimum effort to revising their internal procedures and booking staff training & ebucation. They're not worried about inconveniencing their customers.

I apperciate you trying to get an honest answer from them, but if they give it - it only creates more problems for them as they go back round in a circle.

Regards

Gordon

[aa2000]

Thanks @GORDON92 for your further reply, but the point I'm making is that TalkTalk are saying that they do not offer VOIP at all via CityFibre in Aberdeen, so irrespective of your phone setup at home.  @Chris-TalkTalk  also states that for them to provide VOIP, it has to be available from the network provider in that area.   I've established that VOIP is available from other ISP's delivering via CityFibre in Aberdeen eg. ZEN, so my question again to TalkTalk staff in this forum is why can't they also provide VOIP via CityFibre in Aberdeen?

[GORDON92]

Hi a2000,

It wouldn't surprise me if talktalk(via cityfibre) couldn't offer me the "Digital Voice" service - when they first tried to offer me this fibre upgrade back in October 23 last year - that exactly what they offered me at that point - i.e. Broadband & Digital Voice services. The Digital voice services is provided by a device talktalk connect to the eero fibre router called a GrandStream - Analogue telephone adapter (ADA) - model HT-801. There technical department provided me with full details of it and it converts older analogue telephones to a digital signal to allow them to work on talktalk "Digital voice" services. Now heres the reason talktalk cancelled my original fibre upgrade - there booking department have four or five questions they ask you a day or two before the upgrade commences - one of them is - "how many telephones do you have in your home and what type are they (analogue or DECT) - when I told them I had two analogue telephones in my home (one connected to the master socket in my living room and the second connected to the same landline via an internal copperwired extension through to my bedroom) - this is the wrong answer to this question - and talktalk simply cancel the upgrade. Their upgrade bookings team have no idea how the equipment they are selling actually functions (their tech department do, but they dont talk to each other so it make no difference) - so when "Computer says - no, its Computer says no" - and your upgrade gets cancelled. I tried to explain to them that both my analogue telephones would work ok with the equipment they were providing (which was also confirmed by their tech department), but the bookings department are in charge AND - "Computer says no"!!! - so they wont process it. My only other posting on this forum highlights this in the complaint I raised at that time.

I was hoping they had resolved this matter i.e. the talktalk tech department had educated the bookings department on how their equipment works/functions, but apparently that has not been the case as this second proposed attempt at an upgrade has demonstrated - i.e. they wanted to leave my telephone on the copper network (for as long as that will last) and my broadband on the city fibre network.

Most likely CityFibre in Aberdeen could provide "digital voice services", but becasue of the above lack of knowledge within talktalk its now time to simply change there story and tell me that its not available - simply because I told them I had two analogue telephones on the same land line. If I had told them that I had newer sytlye DECT telephones that operate multiple telephones from the single master basestaion connection point - they would have proceeded with the full upgrade.

Basically it is a complete fiasco.

Regards

Gordon