Full fibre upgrade cancelled

[GORDON92]

Hello, I recently raised complaint CMP-534323.

I spoke to a complaints manager called Jack, who informed me the reason my upgrade was cancelled was because the Grandsteam HT801 digital voice adapter that TalkTalk supply only works with VOIP compatible telephones, and because I have two corded analogue telephones connected on my single landline via an internal copper extension, then this would not work. I have since read the Grandstream HT801 manufacturers instruction manual AND this states this device will work with ANY analogue telephone or telephones on an extension, SO Jack has also misinformed me AND this TalkTalk full fibre upgrade should have been carried out. When will TalkTalk representatives actually technically understand the products they are providing/selling?
Regards
Gordon

[GORDON92]

Hi Ferguson, Yes I'm happy to disagree (everyone is entitled to their opinions), however I think telling people we are offering you a "free upgrade" and then saying, however you will no longer be able to use your existing telephones - isn't what I would call a "free upgrade" - a "free upgrade" in this sense talktalk would have also replaced my existing two existing corded telephones with ones compatible with their new system, that would be a "free upgrade", so again, happy to agree to disagree.

Regards Gordon

[ferguson]

We will have to disagree I'm afraid. The Full Fibre system affords both improved broadband along with telephony services via VoIP. The same service it cannot be, but similar, yes. The fact that some legacy equipment and installations will become redundant is inevitable. There are workarounds as we have both identified. 

[GORDON92]

Hi Ferguson,

My view is talktalk should maintain the same level of service & functionality as per the original contract that the customer signed up for - as I said I'm happy with my current setup, but if I sign up for another talktalk contract that runs past this bt openreach 2024 copper network shutdown, I expect talktalk to provide me with the same level of service I signed up for. As you previously suggested I could arrange for the internal copper wiring extension telephone sockets to be modified by a separate telecoms engineer at my cost/arrangement (or do it myself), but the fact that it is talktalk who wish to make this change to my telephone system, then surely they could take the time to do it correctly, crimping an RJ11 plug into the old existing incoming master socket cable, pulling it inside and plugging it into the Grandstream digital voice adapter, would cost pence and take minutes, while keeping the existing customers telephone system identical to their current setup. Surely this is not unreasonable.

Regards Gordon

[ferguson]

I think the fact is, despite your own view, that the majority of users probably have cordless handsets, which will continue working as multiples with one connected to the router/adapter. And the copper wiring isn't physically disconnected, it is simply shut off at source. 

[GORDON92]

Hello again Ferguson,

I do not see why talktalk (or their contracted service engineer) should not be doing this:-

1) the engineer is already disconnecting the copper wiring up to the master socket, All they need to do is disconnect old existing copper wire at an external point (which they will be doing anyway), pull it inside the house, crimp an RJ11 plug onto it and plug it that into the Grandstream box, any telecoms engineer should be able to crimp a plug onto a cable. (I accept the master socket might have to be replaced by a dumb extension socket outlet, as the master socket contains a capacitor and a couple of other electronic components, but maybe not, the price of a BT extension outlet is about £5, an RJ11 crimp on plug - penny's)

2) Doing this provides Talktalks customers with exactly the same telephone setup they already have and are paying talktalk for, this is the real reason Talktalk should be happy to do this, it is not complicated or expensive.

In any case, I agree with your earlier statement - " I find it odd that this would necessitate cancelling an order?", I was happy with the service and setup I am on, but with the bt openreach copper network shutdown approaching towards the end of 2024 talktalk will have to do something, I think the equipment they have provided it suitable, however the people they are using to assess its suitability for installation go ahead do not understand how it works, hence my installation was cancelled and I was informed I would have to remain on my current setup for the foreseeable future (which is fine by me, other than wasting my time with the questions running up to the installation & the 6hours sitting around waiting for an engineer to show up that didn't arrive), but definitely a case of "computer says no" syndrome - hence this entire post.

All the best regards Gordon

[ferguson]

@GORDON92 

I have personally drawn that YouTube video to the attention of others who are keen to maintain the use of vintage handsets. It is not something that can be included in any fibre service at the point of installation and would be something you needed to arrange privately at your own cost. 

[GORDON92]

Hi Arne,

No I did not place a new order, the reason being - when I spoke to "Jack - a complaints manager based in the talktalk Manchester office" he raised the complaints reference number I listed in my original post, he also said he would just close this complaint as it needed no follow-up, he told me the reason my order was cancelled was because I had "two corded analogue telephones, one connected to the master socket in my living room and the second connected to an internal copper wired extension socket outlet in my bedroom - basically both on the same landline" but he said that telephones that connect to the Grandstream digital voice adapter must be VOIP compatible telephones, and because mine are "corded" and there are two, they would not be compatible with the Grandstream device, hence the reason my upgrade was cancelled less than 15hours before the installation time. I told him that I had read the Grandstream manufacturers installation & user instructions and I believed that the Grandstream device was specifically for "analogue" telephone to make them compatible with a VOIP system, if you watch the YouTube video I referenced in one of the posts below, the person in this video is doing exactly the same thing as I believe talktalk could do with the Grandstream device (which I believe that's actually what the Grandstream is intended to do in the first place), however he advised me this was not the case and this was what talktalks corporate training had told him, so he said my only option was to remain on my current setup & package. At this point I asked him - how talktalk would resolve this issue if this was the case when bt openreach turn off the copper network at the end of 2024, he told me they would have to look into it at some point in the future but did not currently have a solution to my setup(which I find strange as I believe at least 80% of UK households have the same setup, I.e. multiple analogue corded telephones on extensions throughout the home). I told him I would just have to agree to disagree with him, but if this is talktalks corporate view regarding the Grandstream device and how it actually works, then there is no point in me requesting this upgrade, thus our call finished at that point.

Regards Gordon

[Arne-TalkTalk]

Hi GORDON92

Did you place a new order.  

[GORDON92]

Hello again Ferguson,

I'm not sure if your allowed to post YouTube links, so instead I'll say one of the YouTube videos I watched was titled:-

"How to Connect Landline Phones / Extensions to VOIP on Fibre Internet" by someone called "My Mate VINCE", a quick Google search should locate this YouTube video and what he is doing in this video is what I am suggesting the talktalk/cityfibre engineer could do with the Grandstream HT801 device.

Again Regards Gordon

"

[GORDON92]

Hi Ferguson, From what I have watched on YouTube and read elsewhere, you disconnect the internal copper wiring telephone extension cable at the point where it connects / terminates within the BT openreach master socket (effectively isolating all the internal copper wire internal telephone points/sockets), next you fit an RJ11 plug onto this internal telephone wiring cable you just disconnected, then this is plugged into the Grandstream RJ11 socket, allowing multiple analogue telephones to share the single Grandstream RJ11 input socket. Reading the Grandstream manufacturers literature - this should work.

Regards Gordon

[GORDON92]

Hi fr8ys, Thank you for the info, I have done as you suggested, and updated my profile using the link you posted, with the info you stated.

I was happy with the setup I originally had, but was aware of "City fibre" updating the fibre in Aberdeen, they have already pulled the fibre into the service risers of Flat I live in. And I'm also aware of BT openreach shutting down the UK copper network towards the end of 2024. As I mentioned in my reply to Ferguson above the majority of homes in the UK have multiple copper wired telephone points internally throughout the home connected downstream of the current BT openreach master socket, I see no problem connecting this existing internal copper extension system onto the Grandstream device allowing all the connected internal analogue telephones to continue operating (as long as their combined REN number does not exceed the value 5 rating of the Grandstream device), I do not believe many of the employees in talktalk understand the technical functionality of the equipment they are trying to supply. I spoke to 4people on the days upto my supposed installation date, then 4 people after the date when the engineer did not turn up after a 6hour wait at my property, when I was informed it had been cancelled.

Regards Gordon

[ferguson]

No, because the device is not connected to the internal copper extension wiring. 

[GORDON92]

Hello Ferguson, Thanks for your reply, I downloaded the manufactures instructions for the Grandstream HT801 "analogue telephone adapter(ATA)", it states it can support a REN (Ringer Equivalent Number) of 5, looking at other YouTube videos, if a cable with an RJ11 plug is connected to the homes internal copper extension network (I would say more that 99% of the UK homes have more than just the single master socket it their houses, i.e. a few internal copper wired telephone point outlets, bedrooms, kitchens etc) and this is connected to the RJ11 socket on the Grandstream device, then any telephone connected will work, as long as the combined REN of each of the telephones does not exceed the 5 REN rating of Grandstream device.

Regards Gordon

[ferguson]

Just to respond to what you said, I find it odd that this would necessitate cancelling an order? The agent was right up to a point, you wouldn't be able to use your two phones in their current configuration, but you could certainly use one connected via the Grandstream. 

[fr8ys]

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